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CHINA’S GHOST-CITY ECONOMY

How far can the communist government inflate the real estate bubble before it bursts? Some small protests have begun, but the autocrats know how to shut that down, using COVID-19 protocols.

Americans who see China’s miraculous growth and magnificent urban towers as a model for these United States seem blissfully unaware of the vast number of Chinese structures built but never occupied, often never even finished. They’re funded by the life savings of ordinary Chinese citizens. How far can the communist government inflate the real estate bubble before it bursts? Some small protests have begun, but the autocrats know how to shut that down, using COVID-19 protocols.

[See illustrated transcript by Member Sandy Van Heest below.]

Thanks to Serpenza for unveiling this scheme. For more on this topic, we recommend you watch his videos…

Illustrated transcript by Member Sandy Van Heest

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25 replies on “CHINA’S GHOST-CITY ECONOMY”

Massive public works and construction programs will temporarily boost a countries GDP. China’s been doing this for decades. The problem is that, if there’s no need for the works in the first place, you’ll crash the economy and be left with a nationwide mess. The fact they can crush their own people’s hopes and dreams at the same time is par for the course in communist China.

The more I learn about what’s happening in this country and the world, the more it feels like Joe Pantoliano had the right idea in “The Matrix.”

I remember the first time I got into an elevator in China. It was only 4 floors up and we all asked if we could just walk, you know, for the exercise, long flight and all.
As an engineer, the sounds that machine was making didn’t sound good. Oh and the building was only a couple of years old.

Great vid, Bill!

Sounds like more Demonrat “infrastructure” projects. LOL
(Yes, there IS a word for that. It’s a hyphenated word. It’s, “treason-DUH!”)

Well, I wouldn’t attempt to fly off one of their aircraft carriers. The ships will float with planes on them, launch them? Not always and never fully loaded with fuel and arms.

Two things, combine this one and the one you did on shoddy construction methods and you have a great video too.
Second: Now I know where to send all of our homeless people. 🙂

I am so grateful to have discovered you. For years now, you have opened my mind to things I wouldn’t have learned otherwise. Please keep bringing the goods, like this story, and know that you are changing things for the better with each and every segment you do. I wish you every happiness.

Designed probably, constructed? Not so sure. I thought they used this as a large jobs program. Didn’t see many non-Chinese faces on jobsites in my trips.

I thought it was somewhat common practice in Communist countries to have make-work works projects. It is both a way to keep lots of people busy and out of trouble (since you don’t have a real economy to give them work) and also is a way to create numbers that look good to the outside. “See all of the buildings we’re putting up? What do you mean they look like Potemkin shells?”

I’ve never been to Mainland China so your real life experience is interesting to me.

It seems to me that China spends as little abroad as possible so I don’t see the PRC/CCP offering wages that would attract foreign labor. Considering they have a surplus of cheap labor already within their borders and all.

You see quite a bit of that in Arab oil countries, they import a lot of labor and pay quite well though they do not generally offer those people a path to citizenship. Infidels are welcome to come and toil but not to stay when their usefulness is exhausted.

I get a whiff of xenophobia from the Chinese, they don’t seem to want to interact a lot past a superficial level with other cultures, perhaps for fear of contaminating their own communist culture. Any thoughts on that from first hand experience?

Can you say what project brought you to the PRC? I know a Huges safety engineer that went there and he said that at the time their onboard rocket systems used physical copper busses and were quite primitive by American standards. He was there in the ’90’s. My ex-brother-in-law worked there as a pipefitter for a while too. In discussing this with them they both say that they were treated very well and with typical oriental courtesy but really weren’t encouraged to make friends with any of the locals. No one I know who has been to China has maintained contact with anyone there after they left the country.

The same goes for Middle Eastern “oiligarchys”. People are nice and friendly but I didn’t and know no one who has made any friends they kept contact with after leaving. By contrast I still have some European and Aussie friends that I keep in touch with … Though most of those have since died of old age maladies.

The company for which I work and makes a fairly specialize product was purchase by a large international company that was at the time our largest customer. they have mfg all over the world, but the products we were suppyling for are made largely in China and Mexcio.
The folks i dealt with in Engineering and Purchasing are well educated, fluent in English, and pretty arrogant. The line people are autmatons that are taught to do one thing and will spend decades doing that.
Interestingly, as the number of foreign companies operating in China increases, there is much more movement of competent middle management types to other to the point where their salaries don’t lag by as much of a factor as you think. Lot’s of Mercedes and the like in the parking lots.
They are also pushing very hard to tell the parent corp that instead of buying from us, they should just make it themselves. I sense a real if you can do it we an do it just as well or better mentality.
That said, I got the feeling that everything was good until you got up close. The old video about construction that Bill did looked right on.
Road Rider I think has been there and Taiwan many times over his career. We should get him to chime in. My experience in country is limited, but we talk to them and other clients in China almost daily.
One personal benefit to me, the reduction in travel costs due to Pandemic Restrictions now means a trip that I was going to have to make twice a year, i may never have to make again. It is a long way from East Coast US to Shanghai.

Warning! Way too long Post. I’m truly sorry.
From what I’ve read via bits and pieces and hints of A.C.T.’s past activities, I’m actually blown away that he’s not stepped foot in Mainland China. That A.C.T. human seems to have been nearly everywhere and seen and done things I’ll proabably never do and see. (Thanks, A.C.T. !) I’ve often thought he was seal team or CIA or a black ops agent. Maybe he is. Or was. That leaves you and me, “Ron”, with our mainland experiences to share. You’ve shared yours. It’d be hard for me to condense my experiences over there into a normal sized post. I first stepped foot in Mainland China the year Hong Kong International opened, 1998. December 2019 was, I think, my 60th trip to Asia. Each time it would usually involve Taiwan, then Hong Kong, Mainland and out. Each time, about 12 to 14 days per trip.
And to be clear, my experiences in Mainland China centered mainly in Guangdong Province, nearest to Hong Kong and arguably for decades the manufacturing hub for China. I did many trips “up North” to Shanghai/Hangzhou/Ningbo area, mostly for bearing manufacturing. Guangdong Province has cities like the old ‘Canton’ – now Guangzhou, and Dongguan City, and Shenzhen. It’s probably the richest, most urbanized province and has seen growth that has been astonishing. Ok, Bona Fides done.
I’d been working there so long I’d say it’s been in 3 phases. The early years were just as Bill described, abandoned projects, insanely shoddy workmanship in construction of roads, bridges and buildings. Proof? Here’s two stories.
I’m heading to my hotel, one of the early residential properties with a golf course, single family homes and a hotel I can only describe as the Chinese version of Hitchcock’s The Bates Motel. Attached to the hotel is a small mall and a couple of restauants. From the parking lot you enter the complex down a long wide and very formal covered hallway. One morning, I walk out to my ride, and note that the stucco ceiling along the length of the hallway has collapsed on to the red carpet of the concrete walkway. Wow, I thought, had someone been walking below that, they’d have been killed. So I go the one of the factories for some meetings , and that evening, heading back to my hotel after dinner, I walked down that same hallway. The entire ceiling was re stucco’d, but then right after they did the final trowling…..they PAINTED IT! No surpise to me, 2 days later, the entire thing collapsed again. My local co worker had said they’d been battling with that ceiling for weeks now. But they kept doing the same thing over and over, hoping this time to get it right. Nope.
The other horror story nearly killed me. In the early years, concrete freeways were being built all across the countryside. Pretty. Beautiful shrubbery in the medians, all looked like flowing hibuscus. Shiny new streetlamps, where in the states, you might get a streetlamp near freeway offramps. In China, it was a streetlamp every 100 meters. At sundown, night turned to the brightest of days, every night. Nice details, you early Chinese Civil Engineers! However…..no one knew about the importance of the construction and setting of a road bed to pour the concrete on, and in most cases, that all important steel rebar was missing too!
I’m travelling down one of these freeways one summer day in the bright sunlight, and my driver sees a tiny caution tape strung from one cone to another, 30 feet in front of a hole in the freeway, A hole 10 feet wide (the entire lane) and hundreds of feet long. 1 caution tape, just in front of the hole. No flagpersons, nothing! Local knowledge from my driver helped me escape not one, but 3 of these death traps on my 2 hour journey from Zhaoqing to Guangzhou.
The middle years, lots of construction, but this time it’s a mix of local owned companies building projects (failing and flailing), and European – German-Dutch and French engineering companies designing and supervising the building roadways, infrastructure in places like Shenzen and Dongguan. Anything done by outside services seemed to work, get done on time and stayed together. What once were individual cities with an hour of rural land in between, the border with Hong Kong was built into a true megalopolis. With all this construction going on, which would take a decade in the states, was condensed into 3 years in Dongguan. Sammy Haagar was right but he had the wrong city in his song “I can’t drive 55!” One trip It took me nearly 15 hours to get through Dongguan. Ungodly gridlock. Next time you see a flagman or flagwoman in the states, smile and wave.
Even then, the middle years had their problems. My associate factory, I won’t name names, when they were building out their new complex on really really affordable land adjacent to the West River…….Well, they learned the valuable lesson of the need to sink pilings and concrete and steel in the bedrock, and not just pouring concrete factory floors (they did use rebar, tho) on the dirt next to the river. Yup, 30,000 sq feet of factory floor per building, times 6 buildings, dropped 3′ in 1 year. Like I said, won’t name names.
Now, in phase 3 or the last decade, the rich industrial province of Guangdong exploded with massive growth again, but this time it’s apartments and business skycrapers. Over the years, I never ever got tired of sitting on the Kowloon peninsula waterfront and at night just staring at the magnificent skyline of Hong Kong Island. 20 years of watching it shine, sparkle, glimmer across the harbor. Now? Hong Kong looks like the ugly stepchild to Hypergleaming neighbor Shenzhen city. The High speed trains run on time, the subways run on time, and there is a train usually every 15 minutes. Each train can be 15 cars long and hold a hundred people each car. When you have over a billion people to move, you learn how to do it. But it took the Europeans to come in and do the trains first, for the locals to then copy exactly every step.
In the City I worked in the most, Zhaoqing (beautiful city west of Guangzhou) I jokingly call it the Chinese version of “Lake Tahoe Meets Las Vegas”. Housing is going OFF, but occupancy is high Really high. Put a lot of housing in an area that’s relatively beautiful (google it) and people come, first as tourists from neighboring cities and outside Guangdong province, then they want to move there for the occasional blue sky, and relatively fresh air, the beautiful and almost clean natural lake, and the pretty darned high mountains within a 15 min drive from city outskirts.
Now to Ghost Cities. Here is where Bill and his information source are undoubtedly correct. Sure, urban renewall worked out allright in Shanghai, for there is good work there and a massive population base, and it’s a pretty ok place weather wise. (well, ok except for all the covid lockdowns, but I digress) But in the other provinces where you wouldn’t want to visit let alone LIVE there, and the laborers earnings are a pittance, then you’re going to get the ponzi scheme Bill describes. And it IS a ponzi scheme. And honestly, it Sucks to do that to people who’ve made a little nestegg and want to invest.
I don’t know if their culture was hooked on shows like “flip this house” or “Property Brothers”….but someone sold the idea to the regular workers, and the factory middle managers and trained engineers in China that real estate investment was blue chip, it would always go up and never ever end, like a broken ATM. I know it wasn’t ME who said that’s a wise investment. And, it wasn’t one of the factory owners I work with, he does the opposite. He brings his workers into a meeting room and gives them saving strategies and how to carefully take care of the money they earn. I’m proud of him for doing that. He doesn’t have to do that. He really cares for his staff of over 800 people.

I’ve got at least 3 or 4 novels of my China experiences inside my head. Of course, the only folks remotely interested are my wife and 3 daughters. And even that’s a stretch… I’ll close this waaay TLDR post by saying that Bill’s right…and Bill’s wrong. The only real way to understand what’s going on over there in China is to go over there to China and experience it. There are some really nice people over they’re just trying to get by, being hampered by a governing thugocracy working very very hard to exert “control” over a billion people, and keep the status quo of enriching themselves.
As Bill once said in his afterburner called Game Theory, when describing the strategy of Tit-for-Tat…..”it’s a vicious cycle and one that is very difficult to get out of”. China is in that cycle, it’s not good for the ‘regular’ folk, and it doesn’t seem that it’s going to change or end very soon.

Fabulous, RR – exactly what I was hoping you’d put up.
It strikes me that BW(dot)com has over 5000 members some of whom may have had similar experiences.
Do you want to copy and paste this into the members forum, or a blog post, to see if a good discussion arises?

Seems like they have come a long way, baby! I will say that the mid-level and higher people look to be pretty Westernized in their dress; but I do get a sense of arrogance. Mostly the word NO doesn’t go across well.
I have, hopefully, less than a decade left to work. It will be interesting to see what changes happen. Part of me expects many of the foreign run factories to be nationalized. I have seen that in smaller nations (Dom Rep) but would not put it past the CCP.
It is a shame that the technology is so bottled up, they don’t know what the rest of the world is really like.

In your travels to China, “Ron”, I’m sure you were presented with a glass of really really bad tasting red wine called “The Great Wall”. I also know you had to battle with a VPN to get around “The Great Firewall” just to get proper info you might have needed for your job while you were in country. The more Pooh squeezes, the more the signal finds a way to get out and around.

I almost did not survive the ceremonial toasting with Baiju. Lighter fluid would have gone down easier. Easily the most vile of liquids to pass my lips. I switched to a cabernet that had been sent over by the parent corp. I grew up in an italian household, I can drink some red wine. My boss didn’t stop and he is 6’4″ 240. He looked rough the next day.
Didn’t “The Great Wall” wine, but that Baiju, ugh. Never again.

That was very interesting. Don’t worry about the length, if you have something to say then say it and short attention spans be damned.

There are very few genuinely useful bits of real information that can be conveyed in a paragraph or two.

When I converse with my friends, who are all very intelligent, experienced people, we do not talk to each other in 256 character tweets. One of us will make a point, or points and the rest of us have to listen carefully and thoughtfully to hold up our end(s) of the conversation.

I do not converse in earnest with people who while you’re speaking to them are trying to figure out what they’ll say next to show everyone how smart they are. That’s a sure sign of insecurity and it doesn’t make me angry or condescending to such people, it makes me feel sorry for them and try to figure out how I can help them.

Unless they’re buttholes anyway and then you see by my posts here what I think of such people. Neither you nor “Ron” come anywhere close to that category.

I’m not mean to people who have genuine personality issues, I’m mean to people who revel in them. My Dad was a literal bastard born out of wedlock and he had personal worth issues his whole life. People often mistook those problems as him being someone who “needed to be taken down a peg” and that describes my Mom because she didn’t understand what was happening. This made things worse for him not better. My sister also has similar issues and I love her dearly. If I could take that burden from her I would and I have certainly tried.

That said, I don’t have any friends with personal insecurity issues. The men I call “friends” are polite and insightful and would not engage with someone who had that kind of problem while also not being unduly dersive of them … Unless they asked for it. People like me tend to be this way.

I will neither confirm nor deny your stated impressions of myself personally. There are things I can talk about and there are things I cannot and should not. Mostly I choose not to go there because then I don’t have to try to sort that kind of thing out all the time and …

I despise people who cite themselves as a definitive authority because they’re ____, fill that blank in however you like. I can tell by the details if someone really knows what he’s talking about or if he’s trying to come on as someone whose words are unassailable because he claims to be ____. That bat guano doesn’t impress me even a little bit.

(I.E. someone in here once tried to claim that he was adept at a specific kind of analysis on a professional level and then went on to prove he didn’t have a clue. I was trying to have a conversation with that person but lost all respect for them at that moment. That person is an idiot no matter how profound they try to sound. To me, that sort is nothing more than a laughingstock and laugh I will at every opportunity. It’s a fault of mine, sort of like pulling the wings off flies but a fly is a fly by nature and has no choice in what it is. I don’t pull wings off flies but I do mock idiots mercilessly.)

So I try to let my insights, attitudes, experiences and ideas speak for themselves and you may draw whatever conclusions from them you like.

I agree with “Ron”, this should have been a blog post and I wish there were a way to just copy the whole thread to a blog post.

This topic interests me because frankly I’m trying to suck information from you and “Ron” because you’ve actually been and seen and this is a hole in my knowledge. I want to fill that hole.

One of my best buddies was an intel officer in the Marines stationed in Japan for quite a while. So I have other source(s) of information but you and Ron are more than worth gleaning what I can from you guys in an effort to understand the Chinese situation.

The nuances of what you describe as your personal experience are quite valuable. If I listened to Bill’s opinion solely as presented in the above video the impressions I would get would be less than accurate and fleshed out. That’s not Bill’s fault and I’m not criticizing him. Just the opposite. He opened this topic of conversation with what he knew and he cannot be blamed for what he does not know and has not seen first hand.

So I asked and am not the least disappointed in the answers nor critical of Bill’s presentation.

Just FYI I spent the bulk of my time abroad in Europe, the Middle East and parts of Africa. I consider myself better informed on Middle Eastern affairs than the average Joe but do not claim to be an expert. There is always more to learn.

I only got to the Far East a few times and the closest I came to China was a couple days spent in Hong Kong when it was still under British rule. China is a hole in what I know about the world that I’m always trying to fill. Because I see China as the largest threat to Americanism.

Russia on the other hand is “the devil I know” and while I’m always on the lookout for solid, actionable information I know more about Russia than I do China.

Thank you for helping to fill that hole.

ACTS, I just copied and pasted this into a forum post called “China is Living in our Heads rent free, and we need to evict”. I think it’d be a good place to get deeper into Q&A with all BW members who’ve been there. In particular, been there more than just once as a tourist to Xian to see the terra cotta soldiers or the Great Wall. But put weeks there, dealing with both ordinary folk and low level ccp types. I’m super curious to learn of other experiences with the Chinese. and, the Chinese Way. I can add some stories of working with Mainland Chinese, and contrast with stories of working with Taiwanese. It’s so like here, where the left feels that anyone but themselves are bad people with ideas. That’s how the Mainlanders feel about Taiwanese. On the other hand, the Taiwanese I work with, feel that the Chinese are just regular people with bad ideas.

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