I guarantee this POS is either: a lefty, a union POS, and is a dirty hippie (likely all three). The union one is very likely since most union schlubs hardly work and sit on their lazy asses all day, but the other two go with being a union scumbag. I hope she ends her days in prison.
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15 replies on “Anti-American Metallurgist Liar.”
This article represents one of the things that irritate the crap out of me in modern media. Troy Harding is at no fault whatsoever for posting this, it’s the article’s author and publisher I have an issue with. Even then, not specifically, they’re just repeating what they scooped up elsewhere.
What irks me is that it’s almost impossible to get clear, accurate, un-sensationalized information these days.
Obviously we’re talking about submarines here, so by their very nature there’s a lot of secrecy involved. I understand that quite well, thanks anyway.
What I’m talking about is how this dastardly old lady who cheated on milspec testing requirements caused real harm and to what extent that harm affects the boats in question.
So the article says she cheated on the testing specs. The very idea of putting our guys in subs and the subs themselves in danger is repulsive and I completely reject any excuse for doing that whatsoever. But is that what she did? Do we even know if that’s the case or not?
The article throws a red meat headline out there but doesn’t say she actually did any harm, other than some added expense as a consequence of monitoring the parts that came from her company that she was supposed to test and sign off on.
Ok, well adding expense to the cost of operating a sub, costs that should go for more productive applications than checking on something that should have been done right in the first place, is nowhere near a good thing. But how bad is it?
If you read the headline it seems like this “horrible” person put our entire submarine fleet out of operation or at least at grave risk.
BUT — Read a little further down and you find … “… the government’s testing does not suggest that the structural integrity of any submarine was in fact compromised ….”
Ok, so we’re not talking about hull steel then. If there was a problem with hull steel then the subs would have to be scrapped because that would be dangerous to boat and crew well above their rated crush depth. That would be a horrible and dangerous thing indeed.
Contrary to what some might believe, there is a good reason why the Navy would require proof testing for some of the steel in question at temperatures down to -100F.
It’s true that ocean water never gets more than a couple degrees below freezing no matter how salty it is. Salt freezes out, salinity in the liquid goes up, freezing point goes down. But there’s no way ocean water ever gets to -100F. The very coldest liquid ocean water never gets more than just a few degrees below freezing.
Obviously and very clearly we’re not talking about hull steel and we’re not talking about the temperatures of ocean water. More on the obviousness later.
Here’s a newsflash for some of you … Not all steel on a submarine is in the hull, keel and support structure. Some of it is in propellers, which can rotate at a wide range of RPMs, some of it is in torpedo and launch tubes, some of it is in deck plating, some of it is in weapons and navigation consoles, etc. There’s a lot more steel in question than hull steel and any of those other steel applications my have different requirements and specifications than hull steel.
So … Where might we see a requirement for testing to -100F being justified?
Well, subs have to hide to stay alive. If they’re discovered, they’re dead in an active confrontation with a peer power. Where’s a good place to hide? Let’s see …
“Oh!!! I know, I know! Pick me!, Pick me! Under the polar ice caps where they can rapidly make transit between the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans! Where they can travel easily and completely undetected between the East and West Hemispheres without transiting any canals! Where they can lurk, surface and launch their missiles, use their comm gear to get instructions and orders, and uplink to satellites!!!”
Very good, young Padawan. And might they run into conditions of extreme cold while operating in those regions?
“YES!!! The steel components of the upper sail, dorsal rudder, missile hatches and hinges, dive planes, ballast vents, communications masts, radar, periscope and other systems exposed to arctic conditions could and will be exposed to extreme cold. Especially considering wind chill/evaporative cooling as the sub breaks the ice cap and is still wet all over. Most metals get more brittle the colder they get. Those parts would need a steel capable of withstanding very, very cold temperatures. Far, far colder temperatures than is even possible in ocean water. Probably not as cold as -100F as the record Arctic low temperature is -94F but that’s dang close. You always over-spec in a situation like that to be certain of performance in real world conditions and worst case scenarios. Having a missile launch tube hatch snap off at the hinge would stop the boat from diving and leave it vulnerable on the surface … That kind of thing and it’s all going to be put to the test in an Arctic environment.”
There we have it. By simple understanding of the basics of the role and operations of submarines and a little simple garden variety deductive reasoning we can have a comfortable degree of confidence — If not what steel parts exactly are involved yet a certainty that there are steel parts on a submarine that would need those performance specifications for reliable operation. The very fact of the testing requirement and knowledge of where and how that condition may be encountered validates the reason for that testing specification.
Thus, stating emphatically from a Dunning-Kruger sort of ignorance that there is no reason at all for any of the steel on a submarine to require testing at -100F before the Navy will accept it — Is stupid. That’s self evident.
Failure of those steel parts while not as catastrophic as a hull that crushes well above rated crush depth, are still no small matter. Neither are they as large a matter as faulty hull steel.
When first glancing at this article’s headline and stock photo it’s easy to get the impression that this (now) old woman sold faulty hull steel to the Navy that ruined all our submarines. That’s not so.
That’s why any outrage directed towards her must be proportional and appropriate to what she actually did. If you believe in The Rule of Law then you believe in justice as a component thereof. If she deserves punishment, it’s for what she did not what you might wrongly assume she did.
Check your six, petty unmerited revenge is sneaking up on you and you just might have a mean streak too.
This is why you need better, clearer information in all such scenarios.
She’s been doing this for what? Nearly 30 years? No sailor has died and no submarine has been lost due to her cheating on the testing the Navy was paying for.
What she was doing was wrong, it was dishonest, and it was criminal. It wasn’t heinous and it doesn’t require nor justify a lynch mob to deal with her “treason” or “Anti-American lies”. The culprit here is not Anti-American treachery it’s garden variety stupidity. It’s this woman assuming she knew better than the Navy’s submarine designers what was needed rather than just fulfill her company’s contract as agreed. The villain here is the Dunning-Kruger effect not Machiavelli, Svengali or Quisling.
She’s not anti-American, she’s stupid. There’s more than enough of that to go around.
This lady thought she knew more or better than the Navy submarine designers who created the specification. She knew less and thought she knew more. That’s got “Dunning-Kruger effect” written all over it.
If you look around a bit, you’ll see more examples of it right here on this page. Clearly the fact that ocean water temperatures can only get down to a little below 32F is not the whole story. Clearly there must be more to the story than just that. If you missed that, completely, and it went right over your head it’s because you assumed you’re so smart that’s not possible. If something doesn’t seem to fit, it’s not that you’re smarter than everyone else, that you’re so smart you “caught” the error that doesn’t fit which everyone else missed. Just the opposite. You’ve missed the obvious, which is that there is more to the story than you’re aware of. The anomalous perception is all inside your head, it’s not out here where the rest of us live. This is a clear and unmistakable indication of Dunning-Kruger in operation.
If this happens to you repeatedly, where someone tells you that you’ve missed the obvious and need to recalibrate your view, a view you refuse to reexamine because you “know” you’re right … That’s not Dunning-Kruger, it’s just plain old everyday mule-headed stupidity. If you cannot recognize, acknowledge and correct that, then it’s profound stupidity.
Profound stupidity nearly always thinks itself to be genius. Which brings us full circle back to the Dunning-Kruger effect.
This is why it’s not a good idea to go around lynching an old lady who cheated on testing specs too, BTW. You might be just as guilty of an equal stupidity yourself. The quality of mercy is not strained …
This type of thing, whether it’s dull-wittedness in a forum or a metallurgist cheating on testing — It’s not malice, it’s stupidity. Stupidity is often more dangerous than malice. Malice is intentional, it can be recognized, compensated for and dealt with. Stupidity refuses reasoning, has no anticipatable pattern and is nearly always impossible to compensate for.
It’s often the case that stupidity is mistaken for malice. This submarine thing is a good example of how being stupid can be criminal but not malicious also. This woman was not trying to sabotage our submarines and she got no personal gain from it. In fact in the end she lost not gained.
The 3rd of Cipolla’s 5 Universal Laws of Human Stupidity states that a stupid person causes losses to other people without any gain to themselves.
Stupidity is clearly an established fact as cited in the above several paragraphs.
That said, the articles I’ve seen on this matter do not convey the real situation or at least not clearly and up front. This causes people to become outraged where maybe a little less than absolute fury is appropriate.
That is not the fault of those people, the article was intentionally presented with just that creation of outrage in mind. If a “journalist” wrote the headline — “Woman at foundry cheats on tests of periscope housing bolt steel” no one would click on the story. The way this story is presented is on purpose. I don’t recall where I first read about this but it made me mad too. That someone would cheat on the steel used in submarines, presumably the hull because that’s what the pictures were showing, and put our guys and our defense systems in jeopardy is infuriating.
So it took a little more due diligence to see what’s really going on here.
For one thing, she was the metallurgist tasked with TESTING the steel product, not with formulating and creating it. The steel in question was still made to the correct specifications, at the correct content, alloy, temperatures, tempering and etc. By an otherwise reliable and professional American company. So it probably would have passed any tests put to it. It just wasn’t tested properly.
That’s a lot different than delivering sub-par steel made by shoddy or cheaper methods for reasons of personal or corporate greed. Not excusable, but a lot different. If you don’t read and think about this carefully it would be easy to assume this was the case. Because it’s written to lead you to that assumption.
So my point in all this is that you need to think, you need to read, you need to learn and you need to evaluate for yourself. Clearly media types, on either side, are trying to do your thinking for you. Confirmation bias and echo chamber mentality are dangerous and counterproductive. Being led is dangerous no matter the good intentions of the leader. A ring in your nose is still a ring in your nose no matter which hand holds the end of its rope.
She lied and took the money for 30 years, that’s disgusting and anti-American in my book. This mentality is what has brought the mediocre workforce you see every day in this country; she got away with being a liar and taking money for it for 30 damn years, and she’s not the only one. Problem is that these dirtbag liars breed, and they teach their progeny to lie, like it’s OK, and the COUNTRY has suffered for it.
Yes, she lied and took money for her salary when she was not performing the duties assigned to her. I didn’t condone her perfidy and I never said anything was OK about any of that. I’m not defending this person, there is no defense that I can see which would be justified.
She didn’t get away with it, she got caught. You might argue “Yeah, she got caught after the damage was done.” To which I would point out that’s the case with all crimes. You can’t get caught for murder until you kill someone. I really hope it stays that way, I don’t want to see people being ‘caught’ for crimes they have not committed yet.
My concern here is less with this lying grandma who cheated on the metallurgy testing she was supposed to be doing and more on the submarines and the people manning them. The impact on those weapons platforms and systems and the crews that serve them is my primary focus. The article says very little about how this woman’s sloth and stupidity impacted the things I care about most.
People can be stupid. That’s not a generational problem passed down from liar to liar it’s a fault in the human condition. A condition that the Founding Fathers were well aware of and did their best to correct for. It’s nothing new, this problem of stupidity and cheating has been with us since the days of Adam and Eve.
She’s a stupid person, her stupidity has harmed others and gained her nothing. She’s done wrong, she should be punished appropriately. Like I said, I believe in The Rule of Law and in Justice. No more, no less.
ACTS, since I’m the only one on this thread who mentioned hanging, I’m pretty sure you were talking to me. I’m guilty of everything you lodged against me. I don’t know nothin about submarines. I took the headline at face value, because I’m inclined toward a cynical nature and assumed the worst. I didn’t and don’t care enough to do a deep dive study on the particulars of temperature tolerances of steel on a submarine. I was careless and negligent in making a judgement I was in no position to make and should have kept quiet. However, in my defense, had I been responsible for rendering a verdict on this woman’s crime, I would have taken seriously all the facts and knowledge that I could glean before deciding the sentence.
Damn, I hate being the one at the end of your tongue lashings😉
Um, no I wasn’t talking to you specifically though I can see how you might think that. You’re sort of unintended collateral damage. To be honest I hadn’t read your post until I posted my comment above. Then when I read down the page to the other comments, including yours, I thought, “Oh, crap, she’s going to think I’m …”
The above post on the topic is my honest opinion. I’m not good at being diplomatic so I just say what I think and let the chips fall where they may. This really ticks some people off, as you can clearly see.
“Clearly see” by some of the other response(s) here, other than yours. Your response is that of a thoughtful, intelligent person. You considered what I said, looked to see if it applied and if so applied it. (Often crudely put “Eat the meat and toss the bone”.) That’s proof of intelligence, you don’t have to agree with me but if you test what I say and find it correct, then use it as the free gift it was intended to be … That’s smart. If I stepped on your toes I apologize, it wasn’t intentional. That’s just a side effect of me being my usual clumsy self.
My intention isn’t to tick people off. Not at all. My intention generally speaking is to encourage people to think, to look outside the box they’ve built around themselves and see more depth, color and detail. Through various factors, some beyond my control and some not, my horizons are comparatively broad. I’m not boasting. Really. I’m just trying to share those horizons with others.
I can’t do that without stepping on a toe here and there. My personal friends know I’m “insensitive” but my personal friends are also smart people. They don’t take my insensitivity to heart and you being a smart person should not do so either.
A definite indicator of a person’s intelligence is whether they discuss things or simply try to “win an argument”. Discussion is mature and intelligent. Trying to win an argument is petty, puerile and stupid. That’s a fairly easy yardstick to apply when dealing with others.
An honest discussion among peers who are smart people is also a dangerous thing. I might have to adjust my views if I find that another argument or point is more accurate/valid than mine and vice verse for the person with whom I’m discussing any given topic.
A stupid person will not do that, a stupid person doesn’t want to be enlightened, informed and edified. A smart person understands the gain. A stupid person sees that as defeat, as “losing the argument”.
If they get mad that’s on them not me. I’m not a petty, back-biting spiteful person, I don’t hold grudges because I just don’t care enough about what I can see as obvious stupidity to bother. A grudge would imply that the person I hold a grudge against was somehow important to me. No unthoughtful, unintelligent stupid person on the internet is that important to me.
You’re not one of those so if something I say stings a little bit don’t take it personally.
That said, we all do a stupid thing now and then, no matter how smart we are. This is why forgiveness is important. One who does not forgive does not merit forgiveness either. Failure to understand and apply this principle is also evidence of stupidity.
Stupidity is a serious problem, perhaps one of the very most serious problems continually faced by mankind. I wish I could start a blog here on this site to discuss Bonhoeffer’s Theory of Stupidity and Cipolla’s “The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity”.
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer is the Lutheran Pastor that the Nazis killed in Flossenbürg concentration camp for opposing them ideologically. They hanged him two days before American’s arrived to liberate the camp. Cipolla amplified on his Theory of Stupidity and came up with the 5 universal laws of human stupidity.)
Oh, yes, I could start such a blog but it would be pointless. Those who would most benefit won’t understand and those who do understand are the type of person who is already aware of the situation at least on an intuitive level.
Stupidity always thinks it’s genius. Stupidity is often not obvious. If you look for the telltales it’s not hard to spot but it does a good job of camouflaging itself otherwise. Stupidity will use logical fallacies and deny doing so even when it’s painfully obvious, will label intelligence as arrogance, will bathe unceasingly in rationalizations, mimics and tries to throw back the arguments of the opposing view and will accuse the intelligent of all the things that the stupid is doing. All you need to do is spot the fallacies and understand how rationalization works and voila! Stupidity is unmasked.
Just for fun, here are Cipolla’s 5 Universal Laws of Human Stupidity paraphrased and the italics in parenthesis are my commentary —
I appreciate your reply☺️ Reading it I realized that I did what I am often guilty of doing – taking things personally, when they aren’t meant that way.
Honestly, at least in areas in which I should refrain from stating an opinion about something of which I know nothing, or only enough to show my ignorance, it’s embarrassing. Admittedly, what I do know with any certainty is infinitesimal compared to everything I don’t know. Because of this, I’m normally the quiet person in the room.
Thanks for reminding me to examine my biases before hauling off and voicing an opinion that is ill-informed if not actually stupid. Coincidentally, I was just reading an article earlier that referenced the Five Laws of Stupidity –
“The First Law: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
Tongue in cheek, Cipolla notes that “any numerical estimate would turn out to be an underestimate.” So, it’s clear that there exists a nearly infinite and inexhaustible supply of stupidity in the Universe. I have observed this in action: I have been to the DMV.”
Anyway, I’m glad you don’t think I’m stupid. I read all your comments so I can say with confidence that you mean that as a compliment.
LOL @ the meme/graphic! Ain’t it the bloody truth …
No, you’re not stupid and yes I do mean that as a compliment. Stupid people do not say things like —
“Admittedly, what I do know with any certainty is infinitesimal compared to everything I don’t know.”
Saying something like that would never even occur to a stupid person. After all, they know everything, just ask them. Stupid people say things like —
“Yeah OK. Like you’re going to teach anyone how to analyze something least of all me.”
That’s an overblown, undeserved, stupid opinion of oneself if ever I saw one. I’m always open to being taught something. What I’m not open to is being told I was doing something I know damn well I was not.
I wasn’t trying to teach anyone “how to analyze something”, least of all waste my time on a stupid person. They can’t learn anyway so there’s no point in trying. At some level that person knows he needs to be taught that because he said something really stupid and compounded it with logical fallacies.
Logical fallacies of the sort like “All radios have knobs so anything with a knob has to be a radio.” He doesn’t even know he did that, adding greatly to my entertainment. I only read his reply up to that point because from there on it’s clearly a waste of my time and all that nincompoop wants to do is slather sophistry over his already dumb statements. He knows he’s stupid but he can’t help being consistently stupid. Because he’s stupid. (*Detailed excruciatingly below.)
I do enjoy pointing out stupidity when I see it, that’s a fault I freely admit to. That’s for my own amusement and nothing more. It can’t be anything more because a stupid person cannot be reasoned with nor will they discuss things in an intelligent manner. So at some point it becomes pointless to talk to them.
If you or anyone else is amused by me pointing out stupidity … That’s an unintended but welcome byproduct. You can stop reading here or you can read the below explanation regarding how I know the person I’m talking about is stupid. Fine with me either way.
(*The situation in question concerns the Bradken Inc. Atlas foundry in Tacoma, Washington. The steel parts that were not properly tested were all castings.
When I say “hull” I mean the pressure hull where strength is critical. Not the outer hull which is relatively thin, little more than sheet metal and does nothing more important than streamline the vessel for passage through a liquid medium. It may also be rubber clad to deter sonar returns. Submarines are called boats, not ships.
The pressure hull is the part of the hull that keeps the sub in one piece and the guys inside alive at depths. Pressure hull plates are smelted then hot rolled into plate steel, not cast in a mold. The process of “hot rolling'” plate steel is a form of forging, not casting. They’re two completely different processes.
Generally, not universally but most of the time, a manufacturer of large metal components will specialize in one or the other and not both processes.
If someone is going to “analyze” anything they should know all that. If they’re stupid they’ll just assume that whatever they read in a news article is correct information. They’ll consider themselves to be well informed thereby. Then cite that as proof they know what they’re talking about. Even though we all know that journalistic accuracy is seldom the case. Journalists are rarely well versed on journalism let alone something as esoteric as submarine manufacturing techniques. A stupid person will just assume anything that supports his stupidity is accurate and true. Irreconcilable confirmation bias is a trait of stupid people.
Moving on … Then the hull plates are welded together to form one huge, continuous piece of steel which becomes the pressure hull. The pressure hull derives its strength from its shape and continuity.
The pressure hull is cylindrical in cross section so that pressure is evenly distributed from all directions. Like an egg. The ideal shape would be a perfect sphere and that’s why bathyspheres are round. That doesn’t work for a war machine.
The bow and stern are tapered because they have to be for efficient movement through the ocean. This means that pressure bow-to-stern isn’t as evenly distributed. When a sub crushes, it crushes front to back because of this. When a sub reaches crush depth it smashes like a beer can on John Belushi’s forehead. All at once. It’s a mercifully quick death for the crew. Very likely they don’t even know it’s happening, it’s just BAM! and they’re all dead.
In other words it’s the hot rolled forged plates of the pressure hull that take sea water pressure and keep the hull intact. Everything else, from a strength-of-hull perspective, are just fittings. Some of which fittings are cast and machined pieces.
The special HY-80 steel plates used in submarine pressure hulls is manufactured by ArcelorMittal Inc. in Calvert, Alabama. The plates travel by rail over relatively low, flat ground to where they are used.
The parts cast by Bradken Inc. in Tacoma, Washington were not critical pressure hull plates. By now that much is crystal clear and irrefutable.
That doesn’t mean they’re not important, it does mean they’re not part of the pressure hull’s construction. A failure in a Bradken casting does not mean the catastrophic crushing of a submarine pressure hull and loss of crew. That’s not even a thing where castings are concerned.
They may be bolts, hinges, valves and such which are also very important but a boat has never been lost because a bolt failed or a valve cracked. They are lost when they are unable to get to the surface and sink to the point where the sea crushes them. Just recently a boat ran into a really big rock and ripped its bow nearly completely off. The boat was still saved and the crew survived. Nothing the Bradken Inc. castings could do would create that degree of damage and the boat still survived …
Steel used in pressure hull construction is tested constantly as the submarine is assembled. This is necessary to ensure the steel’s important properties are not altered or lost in the welding process. There’s no way a non-spec steel makes it into a pressure hull, there are too many testing and safeguard steps. It’s not just one person in a foundry somewhere that signs off on those plates, it’s a process from start to finish of the pressure hull.
Anyone claiming to “analyze” this situation ought to know all this too. Or else their analysis isn’t worth the electrons it takes to create it.
I don’t expect you to know all of this, I’m sure there are things you know more about than I do. That’s just the way things work. Still, armed with this information see if you can spot the “all camels have humps so anything with a hump is a camel” fallacy. If you want to, just for fun. I won’t be at all offended if you decide it’s not worth the bother, it’s not.
Here’s a hint … “The pressure hull of a submarine is made of steel. All steel on a submarine must therefor be the pressure hull”.
It’s as reasonable as “All houses have windows so anything with a window has to be a house.”
That’s the kind of logical fallacy that stupid people apply and don’t even know they’ve done it.
I do this kind of thing for amusement but do not assume others must be similarly amused. It’s my own peccadillo, like the way some other people might like pulling the wings off of flies. )
“LOL @ the meme/graphic! Ain’t it the bloody truth …”
No, you’re not stupid and yes I do mean that as a compliment. Stupid people do not say things like —
“Admittedly, what I do know with any certainty is infinitesimal compared to everything I don’t know.”
Saying something like that would never even occur to a stupid person. After all, they know everything, just ask them. Stupid people say things like —
“Yeah OK. Like you’re going to teach anyone how to analyze something least of all me.””
OK dumbass. First of all, stupid people argue in strawmen. NEVER DID I SAY THAT I WASN’T OPEN TO LEARNING. I’M JUST NOT OPEN TO LEARNING FROM PEOPLE WHO A) CAN’T ADMIT THEY’RE WRONG, B) CAN’T ANSWER MY BASIC QUESTIONS, C) ARGUE OVER SEMANTICS RATHER THAN ANSWERING DIRECT QUESTIONS AND D) SUCK AT ANALYZING THINGS TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN’T LOOK UP BASIC INFORMATION, AND E) ARGUE OVER STRAWMEN SUCH AS I ASSUMED THE ENTIRE HULL WAS MADE OF PRESSURIZED STEEL
ONCE AGAIN, RATHER THAN ADMITTING YOUR FAULT, YOU DEFLECT.
THE TRUE MARK OF A STUPID PERSON IS NOT BEING ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION OR THE CRITICISMS OF THEIR WORK THEN EXITING THE CONVERSATION PRETENDING THAT THEY’RE THE SMART ONES SAYING, “IT’S NOT WORTH MY TIME.”
SO AGAIN, EITHER ANSWER MY DAMN QUESTIONS BY DEFINING WHAT YOU CLAIM I SUPPOSEDLY MISSED, OR REVEL IN YOUR OWN STUPIDITY. I DON’T CARE WHICH. I AM THE ONE WHO HAS GROWN TIRED OF YOU. IF ANYONE IS WASTING HIS TIME, IT’S ME.
WHAT A MORON.
“That’s an overblown, undeserved, stupid opinion of oneself if ever I saw one. I’m always open to being taught something. What I’m not open to is being told I was doing something I know damn well I was not.
I wasn’t trying to teach anyone “how to analyze something”,
EXCEPT YOU WERE. YOU LITERALLY SAID IT WAS YOUR “POINT IN ALL THIS”:..
“So my point in all this is that you need to think, you need to read, you need to learn and you need to evaluate for yourself. Clearly media types, on either side, are trying to do your thinking for you. Confirmation bias and echo chamber mentality are dangerous and counterproductive. Being led is dangerous no matter the good intentions of the leader. A ring in your nose is still a ring in your nose no matter which hand holds the end of its rope.”
“…least of all waste my time on a stupid person. They can’t learn anyway so there’s no point in trying. At some level that person knows he needs to be taught that because he said something really stupid and compounded it with logical fallacies.”
WRONG AGAIN. I DON’T “KNOW I NEED TO BE TAUGHT” AS I DON’T. YOU, HOWEVER, CLEARLY DO AND ARE THE ONE WHO ISN’T OPEN TO LEARNING. YOUR COGNITIVE DISSONANCE IS AMAZING. CAN’T ANSWER A SINGLE QUESTION AND RESORT TO ARGUING SEMANTICS AND WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER IRRELEVANT CRAP RATHER THAN ACTUALLY ANSWERING YOUR CRITICS WHEREBY YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING. YOU THINK YOU’RE ALWAYS RIGHT AND WON’T OWN UP TO BASIC ERRORS SUCH AS CITING -97F AS THE LOWEST RECORDED TEMPERATURE WHEN IT’S -144F.
“Logical fallacies of the sort like “All radios have knobs so anything with a knob has to be a radio.” He doesn’t even know he did that”
I DIDN’T DO THAT. NEVER SAID THE ENTIRE HULL WAS MADE OF PRESSURIZED STEEL NOR SHOULD I BE EXPECTED TO KNOW THAT. THAT WAS PART OF MY POINT. SUCH SPECIFIC INFORMATION IS NOT “OBVIOUS” AS YOU CLAIM.
WHAT IS OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE GENIUS IS THAT THE PART OF THE HULL WHICH WOULD BE IN QUESTION AND VULNERABLE AT COLD WATER DEPTHS IS THE PART MADE OF THE PRESSURIZED STEEL.
ONCE AGAIN, RATHER THAN ANSWERING MY QUESTION, YOU PLAY SEMANTIC GAMES BY PARSING THE STATEMENT TO FIND A LITTLE PIECE YOU CAN CRITICIZE. IT IS THE SAME DAMN THING THAT DISHONEST INTELLECTUALS DO TO TRUMP’S SPEECH TO CLAIM HE LIES. IT IS THE MARK OF A MORON.
“, adding greatly to my entertainment.”
..AS A MORON WHO DOESN’T RECOGNIZE HIS OWN STUPIDITY…CLEARLY A VICTIM OF DUNNING-KRUGER.
” I only read his reply up to that point because from there on it’s clearly a waste of my time”
…UH YEAH NO. YOU ONLY READ IT UP TO THAT POINT AS YOU KNOW YOU CAN’T REFUTE IT.
“…and all that nincompoop wants to do is slather sophistry over his already dumb statements.”
NOPE. ANOTHER STRAWMAN FOR WHICH YOU HAVE PROOF AS NONE OF MY ARGUMENTS ARE FALLACIOUS. NEITHER ARE MY STATEMENTS “DUMB.” YOUR SOLE QUALIFICATION FOR MAKING SUCH AS TRULY DUMB STATEMENT IS THAT YOU CAN’T RESPOND TO THEM.
“He knows he’s stupid but he can’t help being consistently stupid. Because he’s stupid. (*Detailed excruciatingly below.)”
YEAH NO. CERTAINLY NOT STUPID, AND YOU’VE DONE NOTHING TO PROVE THAT. ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS IN A WAY WHICH SHOWS MY ACTUAL ERROR WOULD DO THAT. YOU HAVE NOT.
“I do enjoy pointing out stupidity when I see it, that’s a fault I freely admit to. That’s for my own amusement and nothing more. It can’t be anything more because a stupid person cannot be reasoned with nor will they discuss things in an intelligent manner. So at some point it becomes pointless to talk to them.”
YEAH OK. YOU’RE THE ONE APPLYING LOGIC AND REASON. UNFORTUNATELY, THAT PREMIER SUITE OF LOGIC AND REASON CAN’T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. YA CAN’T DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY TRUMP SHOULD HAVE ACTED MORE APPROPRIATELY AND HOW THAT WOULD HAVE TRANSLATED TO VICTORY IN 2020, AND YOU CAN’T ANSWER MY BASIC QUESTIONS HERE. YOU SAY IT’S OBVIOUS THEY WEREN’T TALKING ABOUT THE HULL WHEN IT’S THE ONLY THING MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE. YOU SAY ITS EQUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND RELIABLE SOURCES IN CONSERVATIVE MEDIA A IT IS IN THE LEFTIST MEDIA, WHICH IS JUST ABSURD.
CARE TO ADDRSS ANY OF THOSE NOW OH WISE ONE. WHAT’S THAT? YOU “DON’T HAVE TIME” OR THIS IS A “WASTE OF YOUR TIME.’
UH HUH.
See the fact of the matter is Skippy is that I’ve argued with people just like you from the left, and that’s where you belong. You’re a never Trumper pining for the days of propriety. You roll out terms like “logical fallacies” and “sophistry” and all the other garbage that comes with philosophy in an attempt to appear intelligent rather than just speaking in plain English. You take your ball and go home when defeated rather than acting like an adult, saying “it’s a waste of my time.” You argue semantics rather than addressing the topic at hand. You hurl insults without backing them up. You change subjects by running to another topic or thread rather than addressing the original one head on.
I’m sure you’ll nitpick grammar and/or spelling next. Nitpicking and cherry-picking to reframe arguments and discussions by constructing strawmen is your specialty.
Give me a break. Unfortunately for you, you HAVE run into someone smarter and more experienced.
“If you or anyone else is amused by me pointing out stupidity …”
IF ONLY YOU HAD.
“That’s an unintended but welcome byproduct. You can stop reading here or you can read the below explanation…”
WHICH ISN’T ONE
“…regarding how I know the person I’m talking about is stupid. Fine with me either way.
(*The situation in question concerns the Bradken Inc. Atlas foundry in Tacoma, Washington. The steel parts that were not properly tested were all castings.
When I say “hull” I mean the pressure hull where strength is critical. Not the outer hull which is relatively thin, little more than sheet metal and does nothing more important than streamline the vessel for passage through a liquid medium. It may also be rubber clad to deter sonar returns. Submarines are called boats, not ships.
The pressure hull is the part of the hull that keeps the sub in one piece and the guys inside alive at depths. Pressure hull plates are smelted then hot rolled into plate steel, not cast in a mold. The process of “hot rolling’” plate steel is a form of forging, not casting. They’re two completely different processes.
Generally, not universally but most of the time, a manufacturer of large metal components will specialize in one or the other and not both processes.
“If someone is going to “analyze” anything they should know all that. If they’re stupid they’ll just assume that whatever they read in a news article is correct information.”
STRAWMAN…LITERALLY NEVER DO THAT.
“They’ll consider themselves to be well informed thereby. Then cite that as proof they know what they’re talking about. Even though we all know that journalistic accuracy is seldom the case. Journalists are rarely well versed on journalism let alone something as esoteric as submarine manufacturing techniques. A stupid person will just assume anything that supports his stupidity is accurate and true. Irreconcilable confirmation bias is a trait of stupid people.”
NO CONFIRMATION BIAS HERE DUMBASS. I’VE DEMONSTRATED THAT NUMEROUS TIMES. I EVEN SAID THAT GATEWAY PUNDIT GETS OVER ITS SKIS SOMETIMES AND SUCH IS SOMETHING TO CAUTIOUS OVER.
A STUPID PERSON WHO CAN’T ANALYZE ANYTHING AND IS SUBJECT TO THE CONFIRMATION BIAS OF HIS PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS IGNORES EVIDENCE RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS FACE SUCH AS I JUST DESCRIBED.
HILARIOUS THAT YOU THINK I EVEN ACCEPT NEWS ARTICLES BLINDLY GIVEN ALL OF THE EXAMPLES I’VE GIVEN YOU OF THE LEFTIST FAKE NEWS. SOMEONE WITH CONFIRMATION BIAS WHO SWALLOWED THE NEWS WHOLE WOULDN’T RECOGNIZE THESE EXAMPLES LIKE, OH I DON’T KNOW…YOU.
IT IS YOU WHO HAVE ASSUMED THE FAKE NEWS IS CORRECT, NOT ME, ON YOUR WAY TO THE EVER-LOVING MOTHER LODE OF DUNNING-KRUGER THAT BOTH SIDES OF THE MEDIA ARE EQUALLY BAD. THAT’S SUCH AN INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUS CLAIM IT MATCHES CHRISTOPHER KREBS’S “MOST SECURE ELECTION IN OUR HISTORY” WHEN DESCRIBING 2020.
“Moving on … Then the hull plates are welded together to form one huge, continuous piece of steel which becomes the pressure hull. The pressure hull derives its strength from its shape and continuity.
The pressure hull is cylindrical in cross section so that pressure is evenly distributed from all directions. Like an egg. The ideal shape would be a perfect sphere and that’s why bathyspheres are round. That doesn’t work for a war machine.
The bow and stern are tapered because they have to be for efficient movement through the ocean. This means that pressure bow-to-stern isn’t as evenly distributed. When a sub crushes, it crushes front to back because of this. When a sub reaches crush depth it smashes like a beer can on John Belushi’s forehead. All at once. It’s a mercifully quick death for the crew. Very likely they don’t even know it’s happening, it’s just BAM! and they’re all dead.
In other words it’s the hot rolled forged plates of the pressure hull that take sea water pressure and keep the hull intact. Everything else, from a strength-of-hull perspective, are just fittings. Some of which fittings are cast and machined pieces.
The special HY-80 steel plates used in submarine pressure hulls is manufactured by ArcelorMittal Inc. in Calvert, Alabama. The plates travel by rail over relatively low, flat ground to where they are used.
The parts cast by Bradken Inc. in Tacoma, Washington were not critical pressure hull plates. By now that much is crystal clear and irrefutable.
That doesn’t mean they’re not important, it does mean they’re not part of the pressure hull’s construction. A failure in a Bradken casting does not mean the catastrophic crushing of a submarine pressure hull and loss of crew. That’s not even a thing where castings are concerned.
They may be bolts, hinges, valves and such which are also very important but a boat has never been lost because a bolt failed or a valve cracked. They are lost when they are unable to get to the surface and sink to the point where the sea crushes them. Just recently a boat ran into a really big rock and ripped its bow nearly completely off. The boat was still saved and the crew survived. Nothing the Bradken Inc. castings could do would create that degree of damage and the boat still survived …
Steel used in pressure hull construction is tested constantly as the submarine is assembled. This is necessary to ensure the steel’s important properties are not altered or lost in the welding process. There’s no way a non-spec steel makes it into a pressure hull, there are too many testing and safeguard steps. It’s not just one person in a foundry somewhere that signs off on those plates, it’s a process from start to finish of the pressure hull.”
BLATHER BLATHER BLATHER. I DIDN’T NEED TO DO A DEEP DIVE INTO SUBMARINE CONSTRUCTION TO PROVE MY POINT THAT THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY OF THE HULL WHICH REFERS TO THE PRESSURIZED STEEL IS THE CONCERN. YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY STILL MISSED THIS POINT, UNLESS BY YOUR DEEP DIVE INTO THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE HULL YOU ARE ADMITTING IT WAS THE MAIN POINT OF THE ARTICLE…WHICH I SAID…AND THEREFORE THE DEEP WATER TEMPS, NOT SURFACE TEMPS AS YOU CLAIMED…ARE THE MOST RELEVANT FACTOR AND THEREFORE, THE -100F TESTING APPEARS A TAD EXCESSIVE…MAYBE EVEN “STUPID”…TO THE CASUAL OBSERVER GIVEN THAT THE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS A TEMPERATURE OF -19F AT A DEPTH OF 200M. ACCORDING TO THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE, THE NAVY ADMITS TO GOING BELOW 800FT OR 243.84M, SO LET’S JUST SAY WE’RE TALKING ABOUT -30F. -100F IS STILL EXCESSIVE. AGAIN, I’M SURE THE ENGINEERS HAVE THEIR REASONS, BUT GIVEN ALL THE MISTAKES OUR GOVERNMENT MAKES AS THE EVERYDAY PERSON IS WELL AWARE, THEY MIGHT BE SOME STUPID ONES.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/facts-about-navy-submarines-4058060
AWFULLY CURIOUS, TOO, THAT YOU DIDN’T ADDRESS YOUR WHOLE SURFACE TEMPERATURE THEORY AFTER I POINTED OUT YOUR GLARING ERROR.
HUH. IT’S ALMOST LIKE YOU’RE NOT OPEN TO LEARNING FROM CRITICISM DESPITE YOUR CLAIM TO THE CONTRARY. UNLESS AND UNTIL YOU ARE WILLING TO DO SO, I’M THE ONE WASTING MY TIME NOT YOU.
“Anyone claiming to “analyze” this situation ought to know all this too. Or else their analysis isn’t worth the electrons it takes to create it.”
NOPE. NOT NECESSARY. AN ANALYST DOESN’T WASTE TIME DIGGING INTO UNNECESSARY DETAILS. I DON’T NEED TO KNOW THE COST OF EVERY SINGLE LIGHT BULB TO BALLPARK THE PRICE OF A HOME RENOVATION.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YOUR “ANALYSIS” MISSED THE TRULY OBVIOUS AND RELEVANT FACT THAT THE LOWEST RECORDED SURFACE TEMPERATURE IS -144F NOT -97F, SOOO….
I don’t expect you to know all of this, I’m sure there are things you know more about than I do. That’s just the way things work. Still, armed with this information see if you can spot the “all camels have humps so anything with a hump is a camel” fallacy. If you want to, just for fun. I won’t be at all offended if you decide it’s not worth the bother, it’s not.”
WELL, SHE WON’T BE ABLE TO SPOT IT AS THAT’S NOT WHAT I ASSUMED NOR INTENDED. IT’S WHAT YOU INFERRED INCORRECTLY FROM MY STATEMENT.
Here’s a hint … “The pressure hull of a submarine is made of steel. All steel on a submarine must therefor be the pressure hull”.
STRAWMAN…LITERALLY NEVER EVEN CAME CLOSE TO MAKING SUCH AN ASSERTION.,
It’s as reasonable as “All houses have windows so anything with a window has to be a house.”
That’s the kind of logical fallacy that stupid people apply and don’t even know they’ve done it.
WELL FORTUNATELY FOR ME, I’M NOT A STUPID PERSON AND THEREFORE NEVER APPLIED SUCH LOGIC. ANY STUPIDITY WOULD BELONG TO THE PERSON ASSUMING I HAD.
I do this kind of thing for amusement but do not assume others must be similarly amused. It’s my own peccadillo, like the way some other people might like pulling the wings off of flies.
WELL, YOU’RE NOT VERY GOOD AT IT. TO DATE, YOU’VE ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING EXCEPT ARGUING AGAINST A BUNCH OF STRAWMEN WHILE DISPLAYING YOUR OWN OVER-INFLATED EGO.
)
Literally the ENTIRE POINT of your original post (when you weren’t high-fiving yourself in true liberal self-congratulatory arrogance) was how you were SOOOO great at analyzing things that you saw what no one else could see even though it was “obvious”—that it was the surface temperature with a record low of -97F (incorrectly cited as it’s truly -144F) which was relevant not the deep water temperature which all of us rubes subject to Dunning-Kruger assumed.
Your erroneous claim was they weren’t really talking about the structural integrity of the hull. Your basis for this incorrect conclusion was that the Navy had tested the pressurized steel and found no problems. Therefore, they must have been talking about the other steel parts of the ship which would become brittle in extremly cold surface temperatures when a wet submarine surfaced.
Now, in DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO YOURSELF AND IN AGREEMENT WITH WHAT ALL OF US DUNNING-KRUGERITES SAID, you are insisting that it IS, IN FACT, THE HULL WHICH IS AT ISSUE…
…WHICH I SAID…
…AND THEREFORE THE DEEP WATER TEMPS, NOT SURFACE TEMPS AS YOU CLAIMED…ARE THE MOST RELEVANT FACTOR AND THEREFORE, THE -100F TESTING APPEARS A TAD EXCESSIVE…MAYBE EVEN “STUPID”…TO THE CASUAL OBSERVER GIVEN THAT THE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS A TEMPERATURE OF -19F AT A DEPTH OF 200M.
NOW, TO BE COMPLETE, ACCORDING TO THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE, THE NAVY ONLY ADMITS TO GOING BELOW 800FT OR 243.84M, SO LET’S JUST SAY WE’RE TALKING ABOUT -30F OR THEREABOUTS.
-100F IS STILL EXCESSIVE. AGAIN, I’M SURE THE ENGINEERS HAVE THEIR REASONS AD MS. THOMAS SHOULDN’T HAVE UNILATERALLY DEFIED THEIR SPECS, BUT GIVEN ALL THE MISTAKES OUR GOVERNMENT MAKES AS THE EVERYDAY PERSON IS WELL AWARE, THE ENGINEERS’ REASONS MIGHT JUST BE SOME STUPID ONES. WITHOUT HAVING PRIVY TO ALL OF THE INFORMATION THEY DO, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY, BUT IT WOULD HARDLY BE THE FIRST TIME THEY’VE ABUSED THE VEIL OF NATIONAL SECURITY AS A REASON FOR NON-DISCLOSURE OF THE MESSES THEY’VE CREATED.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/facts-about-navy-submarines-4058060
IT’S ALMOST LIKE ALL OF US “STUPID” PEOPLE SUBJECT TO “CONFIRMATION BIAS” AND “FAKE NEWS” AND “DUNNING-KRUGER” WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG WHILE YOU WERE WRONG.
Imagine that.
Gee. It’s enough to make one think that it might be you that’s suffering from Dunning-Kruger, thinking that you’re smarter than you really are.
I’m sorry, you seem to be laboring under the misguided impression that I care enough about what you say to read what you write.
In both cases I do not. I’ve made my points and I’m done with you. My time is too precious to me to waste it on a polemic who just wants to argue. Two paragraphs to tell you that is already more than you deserve so say whatever you like. I won’t be reading any of your replies to me and I won’t be wasting my time on you any further.
Oh look he’s losing so he’s taking his ball and going home somehow claiming victory.
How original.
I’m sorry, but you seem to be laboring under the misguided impression that you are allowed to call other people stupid and subject to Dunning-Kruger then cry victim when you get blasted.
Oh the polemic! Hike up your skirt Nancy.
Taking your ball and going home neither a) proves that you’re correct or b) displays any sort of discipline, maturity or intellectual honesty in debate.
I know that you might, like the Fonz, have problems saying it, but you were…say it with me….Wrrrrrong.
As far as desiring to argue, you are the one who a) kept insisting I don’t understand what you’re trying to say and pretended that I’m the idiot who “just can’t understand” despite multiple attempts on your part to clarifty and b) uses such “evidence” to claim that I am stupid and suffer from Dunning-Kruger while failing to answer my direct questions to clarify.
Stop projecting.
You also obviously cared enough about what I wrote to launch into lengthy diatribes and non-frontal attacks (again, very mature) without addressing the main issues.
Let’s review, shall we?
Couldn’t admit or see your obvious error in declaring that Trump would have won the election in 2020 if he has just been “nicer” and not slung mud with the Democrats. The communists have been crushing nice people and that’s our problem. You even said so yourself in another post constructively criticizing Bill for advocating for a proportional response when attacked rather than an annihilating response.
Denied saying that you suggested Trump was mud-slinging when that’s exactly what you said.
Couldn’t admit or see your obvious error with regard to the structural integrity of the submarine being the main issue discussed and, therefore—the deep water temperatures, not the surface temperatures as you concluded from your analysis while calling the rest of us stupid and subject to Dunning-Kruger and confirmation bias—being relevant.
Couldn’t admit or see that even with the most generous benefit of the doubt, the testing spec of -100F when compared to the -30F or so at sub depth might seem a tad unreasonable or even stupid to the lay person particularly given the massive screw ups that our government makes.
Couldn’t admit or see your error about the surface temperature record low being -144F not -97F, a fact which served as the BASIS for your conclusion that the -100F testing spec was due to the record low surface temp of -97F and that as such they weren’t talking about structural integrity but other parts on the submarine.
Denied that you were trying to instruct anyone else on how to analyze anything when that’s exactly what your summary paragraph said you were doing.
All of this means that you either can’t see the obvious or simply think that you’re smarter than you are. That means you are 0-6 on the Dunning-Kruger scale, which by your own definition, makes you profoundly stupid.
Then you have the nerve to lecture all of us on confirmation bias and everything else while railing against stupidity and the malice which may go with it being dangerous.
You also have the nerve to go around making it a habit of pointing out stupidity in others…something which displays a total lack of humility (humility being the mark of an actual intellectual like Thomas Sowell) and something which most intelligent people don’t do. In a way, it’s an abuse of power. Furthermore, if there were ever a situation in human history where someone was underqualified for a position, this would be it.
It’s a good thing there is no Dunning-Kruger prison as you’d be facing some serious time.
Now you want to pretend like it’s you that is wasting your time and therefore derives the power that comes from dismissal. Ironically, yet another violation of Dunning-Kruger.
What’s that make? 0-7?
I don’t think so.
The reality is that you didn’t realize I was following your posts out of genuine interest in what you had to say and so thought you could fly under the radar with a sneak attack on my credibility in another thread. Then, like the intellectual bully you are, you proceeded with your condescending rant complete with self-congratulatory high-fives based on your superior knowledge in a specific field while dismissing at least me and likely the rest of us as hayseeds who have no ability to process information without falling victim to bias and misinformation.
Ordinarily, I don’t care about these things, and I don’t like to annihilate other people in debate. While it is fun for me in a way and doesn’t take much of my time, it doesn’t make me the most popular guy in the room, something I learned at a young age. People don’t like to be proven wrong, even when they are, so most of the time, I just keep my mouth shut. Due to your attempted bullying ,however, complete with the condescending, arrogant attitude displayed by every single one of the globalist, Marxist, and really all establishment eltes we face who are royally screwing with our country and our future, in this case, I made an exception.
You are dismissed.
Yeah OK. Like you’re going to teach anyone how to analyze something least of all me. We get it. By “some people here” you mean me as I highlighted your ignorance in another post. Very mature to attack me covertly rather than naming me directly. You think I suffer from Dunning-Kruger and ignore evidence. Pffft. You’re the LAST person to criticize anyone on the matter.
“Ok, so we’re not talking about hull steel then.”
..except they are.
“Ms. Thomas never intended to compromise the integrity of any material and is gratified that the government’s testing does not suggest that the structural integrity of any submarine was in fact compromised,” Carpenter wrote.
TRANSLATION…THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY WAS A CONCERN. OTHERWISE, THEY WOULDN’T BE TESTING IT!!! Furthermore, genius, if anything else you mentioned was THE concern, the Navy would have mentioned it AS the concern.
“Thus, stating emphatically from a Dunning-Kruger sort of ignorance that there is no reason at all for any of the steel on a submarine to require testing at -100F before the Navy will accept it — Is stupid. That’s self evident.”
Self-evident how? So self-evident that you had to spend paragraph after paragraph enlightening us all with information on submarines that wasn’t in the article and we couldn’t be expected to know otherwise? Or should we have surmised that by testing the structural integrity the Navy didn’t REALLY think that was the main concern yet was hiding their real concerns? Or that the only real temperature factor testing the hull is the temperature of the deep sea where structural integrity is the primary concern?
Please explain.
“If you look around a bit, you’ll see more examples of it right here on this page. Clearly the fact that ocean water temperatures only get down to a little below 32F is not the whole story.”
STRAWMAN. Argued by no one.
“So there must be more to the story than just that. If you missed it, completely, and it went right over your head it’s because you assumed you’re so smart that’s not possible.”
Or it might be that someone is busy and made mistake or relied upon the NAVY AND HER ATTORNEY AS THE AUTHORITATIVE SOURCES QUOTED IN THE ARTICLE DISCUSSING THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY AS THE ISSUE.
So there’s that.
If something doesn’t seem to fit, it’s not that you’re smarter than everyone else, that you’re so smart you “caught” the error that doesn’t fit which everyone else missed. Just the opposite. You’ve missed the obvious, which is that there is more to the story than you’re aware of.”
STRAWMAN…Don’t project your behavior onto others here. I literally never assume I’m right without thoroughly checking the facts first, and there’s nothing here indicating there is more to this story other than maybe the Navy saying they’re going to check “parts” on a routine basis. Again, if such “parts” were really at issue or surface temp were a factor, they probably would have mentioned it.
Oh and by the way, the surface temperature gets below -100 degree Fahrenheit, so your little conclusion that it must be about surface temperatures dipping to -94F while high-fiving yourself isn’t even correct.
-144F in the Antarctic is the record. But then again, wikipedia is really difficult to check.
“More recent work[5] shows many locations in the high Antarctic where surface temperatures drop to approximately −98 °C (−144 °F; 175 K). Due to the very strong temperature gradient near the surface, these imply near-surface air temperature minima of approximately −94 °C (−137 °F; 179 K).”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest_temperature_recorded_on_Earth
“So there must be more to the story than just that. If you missed it, completely, and it went right over your head it’s because you assumed you’re so smart that’s not possible.”
Hmmm… Now who said that and…I think….this…
“If something doesn’t seem to fit, it’s not that you’re smarter than everyone else, that you’re so smart you “caught” the error that doesn’t fit which everyone else missed. Just the opposite. You’ve missed the obvious, which is that there is more to the story than you’re aware of. The anomalous perception is all inside your head, it’s not out here where the rest of us live. This is a clear and unmistakable indication of Dunning-Kruger in operation.”
Hoisted by your own petard. Ain’t that a bitch.
“If this happens to you repeatedly, where someone tells you that you’ve missed the obvious and need to recalibrate your view, a view you refuse to reexamine because you “know” you’re right … That’s not Dunning-Kruger, it’s just plain old everyday mule-headed stupidity. If you cannot recognize, acknowledge and correct that, then it’s profound stupidity.”
I’ve asked you MULTIPLE TIMES to clarify your “obvious” stance on EXACTLY HOW Trump could have improved his behavior to ensure a wild victory in 2020 rather than mud-slinging with the Democrats. You still haven’t done that.
Now, rather than confronting me directly or, I don’t know, maybe ACTUALLY ANSWERING MY QUESTION, you attack me covertly in the comments to a different article with, shockingly, a strawman. I NEVER SAID NOR DID ANYONE HERE SUGGEST THAT WE SHOULDN’T TEST FOR EXTREMES, and we don’t need the military guy to tell us that we should. No kidding Captain Obvious. You mean stress tests should be applied beyond the actual expected limits? You don’t say. Thank God for your sage advice. How would we ever do without it?
Making basic assumptions based on the evidence presented in the article which specifically pointed to the HULL as stated by the NAVY ITSELF does not mean in any way, shape or form that we are subject to Dunning-Kruger.
Then you dance around and try to display your intellectual superiority by regurgitating a bunch of information relating to your one area of expertise.
How enlightening,. Don’t you think, genius of geniuses, that IF THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PERISCOPE OR ANYTHING ELSE BEING COMPROMISED DUE TO WIND CHILL AS THE MAIN ISSUE OF THEIR CASE THAT THE NAVY ITSELF WOULD HAVE MENTIONED THAT IN THE ARTICLE???
Pretty sure our enemies already know from experience that extreme cold affects sensitive instruments, so I highly doubt national security would be compromised.
I don’t fall victim to confirmation bias or echo chamber as I actually do my homework. So do most of the people here. In fact, I’ve already stated that Gateway Pundit gets a little over their skis sometimes,though their headlines are generally on point. To take this ONE EXAMPLE from conservative media and hold it up to the MOUNTAIN OF LIES FROM LEFTIST MEDIA and reach the conclusion that both sides generate propaganda is the VERY DEFINITION OF DUNNING-KRUGER. Sorry you suffer from it.
Gee…and that’s the SECOND time, right?
“If this happens to you repeatedly, where someone tells you that you’ve missed the obvious and need to recalibrate your view, a view you refuse to reexamine because you “know” you’re right … That’s not Dunning-Kruger, it’s just plain old everyday mule-headed stupidity. If you cannot recognize, acknowledge and correct that, then it’s profound stupidity.”
Looks like you’re 0-2 on the Dunning-Kruger-o-meter. Is that profound stupidity territory?
We read, watch and listen to a wide variety of sources. You obviously don’t. If you did, you would know that the VAST MAJORITY of lying and echo chamber creation is done by the leftist media. It’s not even close, and it’s not “impossible” to get unbiased information if you know where to look.
Your distorted excessive desire to be right clouds your judgment to the point where you’re falsely comparing people like us making legitimate assumptions based on the NAVY ITSELF cited in ONE ARTICLE along with the ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENSE to all of the Democrats following the massive volume of fake news—a fake news which continually relies IN EVERY ARTICLE upon random sociology professors, skewed polls or anonymous sources to create an ACTUAL echo chamber and intentionally deceive an unsuspecting public.
They’ve maliciously weaponized the stupidity and/or arrogance of their readers/viewers. You talk about both malice and stupidity above. Maybe direct your turrets toward them.
Maybe you could start with this liberal professor David A. Love. The fact that he’s teaching journalism is disturbing. The fact that his garbage is being pushed by mainstream media is even more disturbing.
https://thegrio.com/2021/11/13/arbery-rittenhouse-america-white-supremacy-on-trial/
Glenn Beck, on the other hand, routinely tells people to do their own research and not to take his word for it. They’re not doing anyone’s thinking for them…ever. Steven Crowder says the same thing. Tucker Carlson fully admits he’s a pundit and had said in court that people shouldn’t rely solely on his opinion.
Stop with the ridiculous “both sides do it” garbage. You are only providing cover for the left as they try to retreat now using the same excuse. We need to hold them to account, and you’re not helping.
I immediately recognized the contradiction between the headline and the motives inferred by some here. That’s why I went looking for other information. I’ll admit that I didn’t read the 39F as the average temp of deep water (I was expecting someone and in a hurry, a reason not an excuse).
However, even if you do a worse case scenario and eliminate the average by assigning it to the highest surface temp of 86F in the tropics then subtract from 39F the 58F degree difference from the tropics (86F) to the poles (28F), you arrive at a worst case scenario of -19F at a depth of 200M.
Now, if you want to stick with the surface temp angle which wasn’t stressed in the article, it may have merit, but a) the Navy mentioned nothing about surface temps or equipment affected by it and b) the -144F surface temp would the one that I would think they would stress test beyond. Maybe that’s not possible or prohibitively expensive.
Ms. Thomas shouldn’t have unilaterally decided to override the specs of Navy engineers, but to say that the rest of us are “stupid” for assuming the structural integrity was the main issue driving their concern over water temperatures is ridiculous. They only tested for structural integrity, and nothing else was noted as a concern.
“According to the Justice Department, Thomas thought it was “stupid” that the Navy required steel tests to be conducted at -100 degrees Fahrenheit.”
While I agree with Ms. Thomas’s logic, it wasn’t her call. She certainly, though, doesn’t deserve 10 years in prison for taking a stand against stupidity and saving our tax dollars in the process. On the other hand, Bill reported on a Navy guy who set fire to a ship and cost us the whole boat. He deserves everything coming to him.
“The temperature of ocean water also varies with depth. In the ocean, solar energy is reflected in the upper surface or rapidly absorbed with depth, meaning that the deeper into the ocean you descend, the less sunlight there is. This results in less warming of the water. Therefore, the deep ocean (below about 200 meters depth) is cold, with an average temperature of only 4°C (39°F). Cold water is also more dense, and as a result heavier, than warm water. Colder water sinks below the warm water at the surface, which contributes to the coldness of the deep ocean. The vertical structure in the ocean created by temperature differences has a large impact on how life is distributed in the ocean.”
https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/facts/temp-vary.html
Was she faking the results or was she simply inept and protected by a corrupt union? Perhaps she is a traitor, paid by China or Russia, to render our military assets deadly to us instead of them. I don’t know, but 10 years is nowhere near enough punishment for what this traitor has done. Hanging I believe is the correct verdict.
“Thomas faces up to 10 years in prison … prosecutors said they will likely seek a lower sentence.”
It is not guaranteed that your hope for death in prison will be fulfilled.
I cannot fathom such laziness and lack of integrity.