In the capstone of their series on the 7 deadly sins, Zo Rachel and Bill Whittle explore pride — how it conquers a man, a marriage and a nation. But there is a remedy.
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33 replies on “The Deadliest Sin: How Pride Conquers a Man, a Marriage and a Nation”
Fantastic series on BW.
Random thoughts prompted by this.
“To understand the heart and mind of a person, look not at what they have already achieved, but at what they aspire to.”
Along the same lines:
“Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy.”
One for Bill, in response to “every time I argue with my wife it turns out I’m wrong”:
“If you’re ever in an argument with a woman and find that you are right… apologize immediately.”
Temptation through pride:
https://images7.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED184/56f4df2929a1a.jpeg
Zo… one of the reasons I consider myself an agnostic is because I have often said, I love Jesus as much as anybody… but his fan club drives me up a tree.
12 step program… I quit smoking a few years ago. And the only thing actually within me that helped me get past it was that when I looked in a mirror, I didn’t want to see a drug addict. Personally I think one of the biggest hurdles to quitting smoking is that people aren’t willing to admit, even to themselves, that if you’re a smoker, you’re a drug addict, every bit as much as any junkie or any wino sleeping in his own vomit behind a dumpster.
Bill, I just love these shows an morality and Zo brings so much to the table. Keep up the excellent work!
When you can stand and state out loud with certainty that atheists are atheist because they are sinners guilty of a particular sin; when you assume you know them better than they know themselves, then what is that?
Dear Bill and Alfonzo:
I love what you are doing. However, I have a couple of suggestions.
You, gentlemen, are well enough read in scripture to be readily able to discuss virtues and sins in their classical contexts. However, I think that many of us in the gallery are often unable to follow along because we are deficient in the source literature that provides for a common contextual basis.
For instance, pride. pride has been a celebrated virtue in public education for more than a quarter of a century. While Alfonzo did well to present the father of pride, Satan, as the prima facie evidence to demonstrate the origin and resultant destruction of pride, please note that many in the gallery don’t process the word pride in such a manner, and red dudes with horns and pitchforks do little to clarify the point. Bill, as the media expert, you could perhaps help here by interjecting with a few recent, common, media references to help the gallery along, enabling us to better identify media characters that might help to drive home the destructive nature of pride utilizing a more accessible example that those from outside of church and a classical education might find more on-point.
A similar misunderstanding came from Alfonso’s negative reference to religion. I acknowledge the correctness of his position, but again, you’re not speaking before a group with a common lexicon that necessarily views the term religion in the way that you were thinking. Further clarification of terms is in order to bring the point home, or perhaps choose another term that is more readily recognized, I’d suggest “hypocrisy” in this case, because it still carries with it 90% of the meaning I think Alfonzo was getting at, without the additional baggage that a term like religion is going to bring along for the ride.
I would be comfortable putting this before my church, as presented. But I see an awful lot of squirming in the seats of the gallery, here in Bill Whittle land. Not because we feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but rather, that we aren’t accurately understanding the valuable points that you are laying down.
Even the most well read can do no more than speculate and share personal, underdeveloped points of view and opinion. We are not being given truth here, just ideas.
The god of the bible supposedly created perfect beings, angels, because it has a need for servants (where there is a need there exists something to facilitate and fill that need). They were supposed to be perfect and yet the greatest creation of them all, Lucifer, rebelled. This same god created humans because it needed company? Or just more servants? And these prototype humans screwed up. This god is fallible, it makes mistakes, so is it a god?
The god of the bible can cause the first born sons to pass away in the night, but chooses to burn whole cities of people to death or drown a whole planet of people and animals and plants because they weren’t perfect enough having been made fallible by a god who makes mistakes. And theists don’t find this incompatible with the claim that the god of the bible is supposed to be the ultimate of love and forgiveness?
Where exactly does it say that God created perfect beings? The only perfect being is God Himself. And again, where does it say God needed servants? God needs nothing. He also does not need humans. He created angels and humans and all of his creation out of love. But He definitely does not, nor never did need, any of us. And God has not made any mistakes. Again, where do you get this from?
God gave angels and humans free will. He wants us to choose Him and love Him. We create all the havoc in the world, not Him. Without completely giving us free will, we cannot truly love Him. He gave us the 10 Commandments, not out of some power trip, but it is a “user manual” for humans. He created us and knows what we need to be happy.
IMO, Gallstones is justified in disdaining the religion he thinks Christianity is – it sounds dreadful to me too.
John 12:26 (GNB)
Joshua 24:15 (GNB)
Deuteronomy 11:16 (GNB)Do not let yourselves be led away from the LORD to worship and serve other gods.
Job 21:15 (GNB)They think there is no need to serve God nor any advantage in praying to him.
Job 36:11 (GNB)If they obey God and serve him, they live out their lives in peace and prosperity.
Psalms 22:30 (GNB)
Psalms 72:11 (GNB)
Giving free will then issuing commandments is contradictory.
Why is there a hell?
I don’t want to aggravate you, so feel free not to answer, but I’m genuinely curious about what, as a non-believer, prompts you to ask, seeing as the subject has no relevance to you. Only reasons I can fathom are A) You want to argue someone out of their faith; B) You are seeking answers that help you find faith; or C) You seek reinforcement to shore up your shaky atheism. Forgive me if I’m mischaracterizing you; if I’m off the mark, I welcome you setting me straight. BTW, if you really want an answer to this question, I’m willing to offer one.
Allison Ashby
My desire is for discussion. Do people who assert “truths” ever assess the validity of what they hold as true. This is a discussion venue. I am talking. So participate or don’t. If my questions don’t make you think then there is no discussion. I’d rather there was.
I suspect you are making some assumptions of me that are more convenient to your position than are founded on fact. You are applying motivation into my words that I have not stated.
So, I will dispel some of the common assumptions made about atheists. I am not shaky in atheism. I didn’t come to it willy nilly or as a fad. I was raised Catholic, both families practicing. I enjoyed the ritual but to continue to practice would make me dishonest and a fraud. I am not looking to go back. Just a read of the bible, not even getting out of Genesis, creates so many questions and absurdities no rational person would accept it as truth of anything. Most people are theists and follow a particular faith because it is the one influential adults followed while they were children. They continue to carry the torch without question because it is mandatory for the close relationships in which they exist.
If you can’t entertain questions about what you believe and is true without feeling your faith is threatened, then maybe think about why that is. I do not enable comforts.
I did also make a study of apologetics at one time to see if the claims of faith could be convincing. Regardless of how erudite the author, they were still dependent on failure of logic and simply don’t hold water. I do know that some find comfort and validation in them despite that.
Thanks for answering.
As to your last paragraph, when I was wondering if you would respond, I decided that if you did I would thank you for those questions about what I believe. Seeking the answers in the Bible has strengthened my understanding of my faith.
Regarding your comment below, its seems to me that human rationality cannot reconcile with faith, so if human rationality is one’s standard, “proof” will always be wanting.
Not being flippant, genuinely curious; what’s the rational explanation and proof for where everything in the Universe was before the Big Bang? Is there nothing we don’t have to take on faith?
You will find the answer to this in Ezekiel 28:11-19. Some people argue that the prophet is speaking to a mortal king, but if you read carefully, how can this possibly apply to the king of Tyre?
‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God;…You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
So, considering these words, Gall is more right than you, though he is wrong in presuming that God was the one that left something imperfect in this creature that essentially was a ticking time bomb.
God did not create humans because he was lonely, or because he needed slaves. Satan caused many of the angels to fall, and therefore their places were left empty. They ruined the first creation and bled darkness into everything that, at first, was only light. The Genesis you and I see is but a reparation of what was there before, but it is so different that it might as well should be called something “new”. In Revelation 21:5, you hear these words, “I am making everything new.”, and also in Rev 21:22 you’ll read: “I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.”
We don’t grasp the profundity of what we read because we can’t read between the lines. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [Full stop] Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.[Second stop] When God creates, does he do it in half measures? Does he forget to make things whole or to bring a light with him? Does he need 7 days, if he is Almighty? And are they 24 hour days, as we have come to know them in our day? If there was war in heaven, and the dragon was cast down like a bolt from heaven, could such force of impact affect the rotation and tilt of the earth, and for how long?
There will always be questions that want answers, but I will argue that these are not the most prescient questions we should be asking. God made man because there was a vacancy in heaven; because there is work to be done and things that have been left mismanaged and neglected. If things can be cast down, can’t they also be raised up?
If the accuser found it easy to disrupt the engines of order, yet found it difficult to put in the work to get vacancies filled, that in itself was his fall. You should be willing to rebuilt things you have caused to be dismantled by your criticism, but if you’re too proud to put the belt around your waist, roll up your sleeves, and get to work… Then you too will probably answer, “Non serviam!”
I think Zo is conflating religion with something else here. There is as much pride in a person that thinks he’s discovered something unique that he pretends that he has no need for a community that shares a set of beliefs. I am a Catholic. I don’t pretend to have the answers for everything and have learned a lot by sizing myself up against the magisterium of the Church, and often finding myself at odds with her doctrines. Pride would have taken me my own way, had I disagreed and taken the same perspective as Zo. But I didn’t, and I am trying my best to conform myself to her rules, by the letter. If I hadn’t, I would not be able to point to my 6 and 1/2 children, the last 5 which have been born (and expected to be born) on each odd year for the last consecutive 10 years. Maybe Zo can tell us what his problems are with Catholic teaching, or if his problems are with its adherents? It is true that the goal of perfection is beyond us, but you’re missing the point when you think it should be used as an excuse, rather than what it is: a goal we must continually strive for; Man was not made in the image of God to serve as some cruel joke toward us. Neither would he reach down to take on flesh and blood himself if we were beyond the capacity to follow the example of what has been made fully possible by it.
Of course I’m proud of my faith. As much as I would be proud of my children or even my own walk, during times I know the Lord has kept me too busy to distract myself with things that cause me weakness. I have a pride for my country and my city or my yard, as much as I would have a pride in my ancestry or the loyalty of my dog. I have zero influence on some, while others can be credited to me in full, by what heaven has made me capable of. My city might not be the best city, the football team of my kids school not the best football team, but it is MY team and I would do the best to make it the best it can be. There is a kind of pride that cannot harm you if loyalty remains intact through failure, if it rests in hope. When it lies beyond self-interested idols of achievement by becoming, step by step, that impossible road.
Yes! I was just going to write something similar, but you are much more eloquent than me. I like Zo, and have enjoyed this series so far, but there are many problems with it as well. For Zo to come out and say that God despises religion is just so completely wrong that I almost stopped watching. There are many statements he brings up that have no support, and that does bother me. If God despised religion, then why is this in Matthew’s Gospel: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. Jesus came to establish a Church.
And I agree that you make a very good distinction between pride and the sin of pride. Pride is not a bad thing, it is the sin of pride that is bad. All sins involve things that are good that have been twisted.
And when they spoke about love – many also are confused on what real love is. To love someone is to want the best for them. There doesn’t have to be good feelings associated with it. Love is an action. The greatest act of love is Jesus dying on a cross – love always involves sacrifice. If one goes into a marriage knowing this, and both spouses truly love each other – which means they will the best for each other – the divorce rate would go down to nothing.
Again, Hugo, thanks for writing exactly what I wanted to say as well…
Interesting, I took what he said a completely different way.
I grew up attending Catholic Church and was very put off with the way parishioners talked about other Christian religions and what they got wrong. I spent much time searching and with my wife’s help we found a home church that fit us.
But during that search, I heard a lot of Lutheran’s talk about what Catholics and Baptists got wrong; and Baptists talk about what Presbyterians and those cult like Catholics got wrong.
This is where I think Zo was going, that belief in Jesus as the Son of God is not about the religion you follow. It’s not about the nuts and bolts and processes of worship; but about Faith and following His word. I have met many profoundly faithful people who read their Bible and keep the word, but never go to church.
Jesus did found a Church, but it is with a Capital C and it was neither Catholic or Lutheran or Baptist or whatever. It is all of them and which one you consider yourself a part of matters not one whit to God.
I find that perspective very beautiful and pure. I don’t agree with it, but I fully understand the desire to remove obstacles of conflict or distraction from a person’s wish to have a place dedicated as holy ground and acts as a focus for pouring out the hours and the week. Some people go to be filled, like a battery, but I was never a fan of this kind of ‘recharge’ worship, which I find is very sensationalist and driven by a spirit of consumption that craves to be filled. A more perfect faith goes to offer the sacrifices we have committed or born in the interim. When a person worships like that, nothing outside of the service/visit can interrupt or stain it. There are imperfections and imperfect actors anywhere that we go, that is a truth which I don’t think will ever change while this earth, and the laborer in it, continues to serve its purpose and end.
I do strive for this kind of worship, which makes it impossible to not go. The wine skin fills to bursting, the well threatens to rupture like a geyser. There I pour myself out on my best day (when I know I am nothing, but I am contented with a feeling that I have given him no offence) and it’s like a release from suffocation. I don’t need an answer. I don’t need special gifts. Yet in Catholicism one is available and to receive the Eucharist after having emptied yourself out completely… There is nothing in the world that can ever describe this. It is the Eucharist which make it feasible for us to become, beyond adopted children, true sons and daughters.
That’s what I try to share with others. I don’t presume to be able to stand in the way of anyone who God has allowed to stand before the gates of heaven. The scriptures make it clear that prostitutes and tax collectors will walk into heaven ahead of some who think they can kick the ladder out from underneath others attempting to climb. They forget that this place, and this Man, is for the sick and the lost.
I don’t know where my previous reply went, but since I got another notification for this old post, I’ll make a new reply too. You see, I think it does matter which one you consider yourself to be part of. In Matthew 16:18, he establishes a Church upon Peter, which only the Roman Catholic Church can claim apostolic succession to, person by person, all the way down to Pope Francis. No other Church can say as much. In Luke 9:50, we see that Jesus establishes the rules of engagement with other fellow Christians. That we are not to hinder those who do not necessarily set themselves up as being anti-Catholic, or basically Protestant. As Protestants, by definition, must protest something; Protestants are antagonistic to the Church and the teachings of predestination, sola scriptura, and faith alone, have all been and can be easily denounced and proven false and misleading doctrine without having to go beyond scripture. The Catholic Church continues to be the only Church that has not been defeated, as the apostolic succession obviously continues, as evidenced by the ruins of the Coliseum just across the Tiber. Rome still stands, but not with a Caesar as king. Rome has become a nation of itself, and Catholicism is the only faith that can claim to be a nation, giving sense to the song of Moses by both the distinctions made in it. Those who do not gather with us, scatter (Luke 11:23). In this same chapter you will notice that familiar phrase regarding kingdoms that are divided. Who of you, being of countless denominations, are really united? Yet the Church has the same scriptures being read in every church in true communion across the face of the earth, since there is one liturgy that is shared and one doctrine.
When we speak of Church, it isn’t of a building on a block that comes to mind or of a number of faces which we find familiar personally. The word brings to mind two millennia of history. There is only one Church, just as there is only one bride, and not many brides.
“There is, of course, a good type of pride. Paul, for example, was proud of the churches he had established. But this was not arrogant or self-exalting pride. He made clear that his accomplishments were the fruit of God’s grace to him and through him (Rom. 15:17–19). Occasionally Paul mentions boasting, but this is a matter of highlighting what God has done by his grace, either through Paul or in those in the churches. It is never self-exalting. These days most of us will say that we are proud of our children or our favorite sports team or perhaps something we have accomplished. In cases like this, we are (one hopes) saying that we are really pleased about something good and are not engaging in the sinful type of pride and arrogance the Bible condemns…”
https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/Pride_and_Humility_SinglePage
The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together. The independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint councils and joint efforts—of common dangers, sufferings, and successes. …
Sensible of this momentous truth, you have improved upon your first essay by the adoption of a Constitution of government better calculated than your former for an intimate Union and for the efficacious management of your common concerns. This government, the offspring of our own choice uninfluenced and unawed, adopted upon full investigation and mature deliberation, completely free in its principles, in the distribution of its powers uniting security with energy, and containing within itself a provision for its own amendment, has a just claim to your confidence and your support. Respect for its authority, compliance with its laws, acquiescence in its measures, are duties enjoined by the fundamental maxims of true liberty.
(An excerpt from George Washington’s farewell address. It continues with warnings about factions and changes brought about by faction and not by a unanimous agreement of the whole of the people in union. I sure wish someone would read this document again on February 22 and keep this a fixed tradition every new presidency. It is so momentous and so relevant to what is happening now.)
Your link was a long read. I agreed with everything in it, all but the part with Uzziah, whom many abandon to a desolate end. He was even buried in the graves of the common people, disgraced until his last day. Yet it was on his account that the heavens were torn open and Isaiah lamented his own sin. Without an Uzziah, you do not get an Isaiah. His pride was not in his success in war, in power or in riches. His downfall came when he thought he could dismiss the priests on account of their own imperfections and, entering the temple, offer the burned incense there himself. Something only a priest had a right to do. He was rebuked, in the same way Miriam was, even in the instant in which he was berating the priests.
What is more, take a look at the influence Uzziah had on his son, who was also a king seen to be in the favor of God. After all, there are only a handful who are written to have “done what is right in the eyes of the Lord”. But here you have almost four in succession. Ahaz might not have been a good king, but even he was gifted the greatest prophecy by refusing to put God to the test. And who do you think inspired that answer, if it was not his grandfather Uzziah? Who can forget that Ahaz was followed by Hezekiah? It may be easy for many to dedicate Uzziah to the waste bin of bad examples for a single mistake and ignore the fact that he was probably a better king and administrator than Solomon. I know I wouldn’t, especially not during an age where the great majority of our religious generation has abandoned all fear in how they speak about priests or think they have no need for them. Just like Uzziah, they say they don’t need a priest between them and The Lord.
Thanks for your thought-provoking response.
Don’t think less of yourself. Think of yourself less.
– C. S. Lewis
Less than what?
And why do this?
The first part is a reminder to not be self-loathing and the second part is a reminder to not dwell in the self-centered narcissistic type of love that leads to toxic pride. I believe that when you’re not focused on yourself constantly, you are able to give of yourself to others and truly love your neighbor.
Anyway, that’s the way I’ve thought of it over the years. I don’t remember which book it came from either, but if I had to guess, I would say it’s Mere Christianity.
Thank you.
“The Accuser”, eh? Never heard that. But it’s interesting. How does cancel culture work?
Accusation. Triggers your pride in your virtue. Which leads you to over-react in your own defense.
It’s despicable.
Re: Natasha … I’d love to have the opportunity to learn whatever she could teach me in 1 day about photography. Just that little bit could improve mine perceptibly.
Yes! I noticed long ago the thing about the people who talk a lot about how smart they are are insecure about how smart they are … and it goes for any other perceived inadequacy. I used to say insecurity is really the root of all evil. We could go really deep into what causes insecurity but I won’t go there now or we’ll be here all day. If it isn’t the root of all evil, it’s really close to the root of a hell of a lot of it.
My favorite definition of humility is: “Not thinking more of yourself than you ought.” Not thinking you are worthless. Not thinking you are worse than everyone else. But not putting yourself higher than you are either. Knowing where you are. And hoping you can get better.