Miss Manners dodges a question about whether men should remove hats indoors. Are there cultural conventions about dress that matter anymore? Stop by your local Walmart to view a veritable anti-fashion show of pajamas, fuzzy slippers and sports bras put on by ordinary shoppers. What do you think about appropriate attire in public? Does it matter? Did it ever? And, if so, why?
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33 replies on “Men Without Hats: Pajamas and Sports Bras Worn in Public, Does It Matter Anymore?”
Bill, I so agree with you about rabid feminism. So harmful, so indoctrinating. In college, I was speaking to some girlfriends, I said, “Hey Girls”…. A feminist (kill joy) in the group said, “call them women” YUCK!!! I didn’t say anything but to this day I wish I would have. But I’ve had pleanty of other times, and I did speak up! What trash these feminists believe in.
It used to bother me that I wore my hat inside restaurants, but I did so because so few restaurants provide a place, near where we get seated, to hang or place my hat while eating. So I wear it, or maybe take it off and place it on the table. So standards of accommodation have changed too. Times have changed, indeed.
My husband has the same complaint! Trying to balance a nice Stetson on your knee while enjoying a meal is not easy!
I remember my mother dressing up to go downtown and we would wear formal dresses to go to a nice restaurant. I miss that. Nothing is special anymore. My son keeps his hat on to hide his balding head. I guess what’s important has changed.
‘I am a one man conflict’ works nicely to the tune of ‘ I am the Merry Mailman’ now I’ll have that ear worm all day.
Full disclosure — I wear a hat when I go out in the wintertime. 🙂
This is a subject near and dear to me. I noticed long ago that we appear to give less than … a damn. What’s actually worse, but I think related, is profanity in public. Just firehoses of profanity, and the people who do it actually think it makes them cool.
Venue appropriate clothing … should also be a thing again.
It shows respect for your fellow citizens. It makes YOU … behave better. It sets a higher standard for you, and encourages aiming up.
It’s not a lack of fashion; it’s a fashion of lack. In some cases, it’s a lack of respect. In some cases, it’s a lack of decency. In some cases, it’s a lack of intellect.
Well put! I like the switch of words. It comes out pretty profound, hitting the nail on the head.
I think Steve definitely buried the head of the nail when he said that women are the ones who set the standard of achievement for men. I always believed that the only reason there are jerk, deadbeat, abusive men out there is because there are women who will accept that type of guy. Otherwise, I don’t believe they could perpetuate the species.
BTW, Scott, this is a great topic for an episode. Thanks so much and I love your grandpa. He reminds me of my dad. In the late 50’s, we went on a vacation that included the cities of Detroit and Buffalo and I still look at the pictures of us and while walking the streets of Detroit on vacation, DAD was wearing a tie with the white shirt. Gotta love that generation
“…women are the ones who set the standard of achievement for men”
I’ve long said this … the role (or one of the major roles) of women in society is to make men better men. To give us more to live up to.
I substitute teach a lot at a local high school and I see students wearing PJ bottoms ALL the time!! Some also wear the fuzzy slippers. The school policy is “no bare stomachs” though so at least we don’t see that!!
How far have we fallen. I started out wearing literal school uniforms. Switch schools in 5th grade. The girls still had uniforms, but the boys were relaxed to “no BLUE jeans (green, brown, black, tan were fine) and a shirt with a collar” (yes, we were also expected to wear shoes, but they could be pretty much any shoe).
Now it’s “no bare bellies”. Wow.
How we present ourselves is how we ask society to judge us.
We live in the Pacific Northwest now after living in SO. CAL. for 35+ years. It’s definitely a different culture up here, but not necessarily in a good way. We’ve been treated to adults still wearing their pajama pants and slippers in public ever since we made the move in ’94.
Wal-mart is definitely the worst example I can think of, but you see it everywhere here, even at the gym. We see kids in their pajamas along with the adults. I think it’s pathetic that people are so damn lazy that they can’t/won’t get dressed before they go to the grocery store.
As if that’s not bad enough, I see a lot of people, especially women, who are what I like to call “a double”. They need to go on a diet AND buy bigger clothes.
We also get treated to a lot of really bad tattoos along with tube tops and too short shorts, or a nightgown for a shirt. Occasionally you’ll see someone who had the energy to get dressed, not not enough to put on shoes, they just go with the slippers.
People in this country have the “entitled” attitude, they can do whatever they want and everyone else owes them something, including the right to look like a slob whenever they’re out in public.
I think it’s pretty pathetic.
There is something to be said about looking your best when in public. I’ve noticed that I’m treated differently in an upscale department store when I had my work clothes on (usually a dress or skirt) versus jeans and tennis shoes. I think anyone looking at you automatically has a higher opinion of you because you took the time to dress appropriately. Anyone can go out looking like a slob, but why would you want to? Save the jammies and slippers for home.
Those sayings “clothes make the man” and “dress to impress” aren’t tired cliches. You feel and behave differently when you’re dressed up. And if you don’t think enough of yourself to look your best, who else will?
For what it’s worth, I can think of 1 activity, one event, one set of of norms which dictate, to this day, the thoughtfulness, the appropriateness and the respect shown to others by removing one’s cap. And yes, it’s a baseball cap.
There are a number of issues related to “hats” which played a role in the past. One was that removing the hat was a sign of vulnerability, the head not being “protected” by the covering. The other sign with removing the hat on entering was the message that the person was not going to leave. It also implied deference and respect for the other person.
Another issue of clothing was as a class identity. Certainly the upper classes established more elaborate dress than could be afforded by the general population. By seeing someone well-dressed the “class” was apparent immediately and encouraged a person to strive to “dress well” and imitate the manners involved as well. With the expansion of the middle class and greater wealth as well as increased access to better clothing not only did more people dress “well” but the manners involved were expanded. Among various societies these attributes became the norm.
Nowadays the worm has turned and self-expression has become a release from conventions of dress and behavior. We also see the change in language, with nearly every show allowing expletives, even among or most “importantly” in the language used by the so-called educated class. F-this and F-that permeates ordinary language these days, with no thought of exercising self-control or, worse, demonstrating a lack of depth of vocabulary or wit to explain or express.
Is the deterioration harmful? While the answer of course is that we don’t know what comes next, it seems pretty clear that behind the loss of self-control and self-respect is a lack of respect for others, allowing action to follow words.
There is another layer, involved in a person having personal weapons, which is not the subject here. While weapons could be owned only by a certain class, possession tended to engender a more “courteous” engagement between people.
But if we are going to Home Depot, or perhaps the local irrigation supply shop, as I did recently, shouldn’t we actually spread some dirt or grease on our clothing to indicate our “manly” or “working man” credentials? A few customers ahead of me certainly displayed the results of their extended outdoor activity in the hot Florida sun or rain. Fully appropriate for them in that circumstance.
The other factor to consider from times past is that clothing, especially decent or high quality clothing, was still relatively expensive, and in part indicated your social class and/or occupation. Even a mechanic or mailman or other delivery person might be expected to wear a tie under their overalls or other still relatively clean outerwear. I would say this applied up to around the 50’s and a little into the 60’s. And then blue jeans became even more prevalent by that time, compared to tweed trousers, etc. Not a fashion historian so I might be off a little on the timing.
But now, every picture of an African village, immigrants breaching our Southern border, Syrian refugees going into Europe, or Ukrainians going into Poland, all show people with plenty of clothing, either pretty casual or even fairly decent in terms of polyester coats and jackets for cold weather, etc. Prosperity in textiles seems to lead prosperity in other spheres in most societies today. This clothing may be made in the far East, Pakistan, Indonesia, Mexico, et al. but is readily available world wide, either directly or as 2nd or 3rd hand usage.
It is almost all cultural convention, and we now have the liberty to allow multiple subcultures within our overall “culture”. I don’t recall the exact timing, but even engineers went from suits and ties to casual Friday to casual all week. If that culture is now less honest or caring or more weird than in the past, that is maybe a separate conversation.
And on the hats, maybe it is simply “why bother with another item of apparel”. With autos so plentiful, the short trip from house to car (if not already through the garage) to a building (if not in a parking garage, too), made the need for rain protection less common, compared to when people used mass transit in urban areas.
I still hold doors for other people, and thank them when they hold one for me. I bet 90% of the people here do the same.
I am now sixty eight years old, and can say I never saw my dad in shorts, tee shirt or tennis shoes. He always wore slacks, tucked in button up shirt and loafers. I also remember one summer when we flew from Los Angeles to North Carolina to visit relatives when I was a teenager, with long hair, and usually wearing either jeans/shorts with tee shirts that had surfboard or muscle car prints. My dad made me cut my hair before going, and dress in slacks and button up shirts so I would fit in. Well, all the teens in the family had long hair and dressed like I did back in California! My dad was shocked, and I was embarrassed!
Whoops! Bill got It wrong. Men haven’t always worn hats. Look at the Founding Fathers. Pictures of the middle ages. The middle ages. Christ’s era. About the only ones in those eras were military and for status. Thinking about it, it seems to have started in the US about the Civil war.
My deceased Dad was a Master Hatter. His life revolved around clothing and sharp dressing. He told the story, repeatedly, how the “hat wearing decline” was completely due to JFK. President Kennedy did not wear a hat at his inauguration!) SHOCKING! And there went all those hat wearing generations.
I think clothes and dressing are a form of self expression. A way one dresses will tell a piece of the story about that person before you even talk. Self respect is a THING. Still. For some of us……
This may be something that all of you already know but, a couple of years ago, I had an epiphany regarding “Ladies first”.
One day, I had gone to Costco to get just one item. I was standing in the checkout line and, just ahead of me was an exceptionally good looking woman wearing a very flattering outfit and I was quite enjoying the opportunity to gaze upon her while her back was turned.
Then she turned toward me and saw that I only had one item and she offered for me to go ahead of her.
No, no, no no, no!
That would have immediately ended the beautiful show because I would not have be able to look (stare) at her, undetected. Naturally, I insisted on remaining behind her and I suddenly acquired a great appreciation for the phrase, “Ladies First.”
“Ladies first” is not about Chivalry. It’s all about a free look at a woman’s backside. This whole incident that I described is now one of those ‘snapshot’ sort of memories that will cherish forever.
You gentlemen jogged a memory. Years ago, my father traded his ’53 Chrysler for a ’57 Dodge. The new car had a much lower roof line that his previous cars and his primary complaint was that he could no longer get in the car with his hat on!
I think one thing that’s also going on related to all of this is that clothing is now a solved human need – the previous generations that sought to dress with increasing decorum were often struggling to own much in the way of clothing, and the suits that people wore might have been one of only two sets of clothing they even had – the other being rough work clothes. Once clothing became a problem that was solved, the mindset changed from one of treasuring the opportunity to show off one’s fancier clothing to one of a bit more abundance, trying to figure out if there was any necessity in wearing fancier clothing to an event.
My daughter and her husband threw me a Clown Party for my birthday and everyone came appropriately dressed. It was a hoot!
Second, no one would think twice about leaving their katana outside the door and only keeping their wakizashi with them inside, if only to keep their kogai with them to arrange their hair.
Lastly, I see no problem with young ladies ditching their sports bras and rocking pajama bottoms for a proper romantic slave-girl vibe. Spread the word.
As an elementary school teacher for t0 years and college professor for 24, I NEVER showed up in class without a tie! It showed the students that I had respect for them, and the circumstance (i.e, this occasion is important to you) but it also suggested subtly that I was worthy of respect. I almost never had any discipline problems.
My late father’s career path was very similar to yours, and he spent his final 18 years as a college professor. He also would never dream of showing up to teach a class in anything but a suit and tie. Furthermore, having a rather swarthy complexion, he would shave again if he had a night school class to teach…He never had to say a word to me about how I left the house (and this was during the late ’60s-early ’70s)…his example said it all…
I brought my sons up to hold the door (and not just for ladies), not wear hats inside, use “yes, ma’am” and “no ma’am”, and at least try to listen first before talking. One son went to the University of Alabama, joined a fraternity, and fit right in. Another son went to High Point University in North Carolina – where seemingly every license plate in the parking lot is from the Northeast – and was treated like a leper. The feminist attitude that Bill railed against was on full, sad display. He’d hold a door and the girls would not walk through, just glaring at him like he was some creepy voyeur.
There is a regionality to courtesy, to some extent (Atlanta has more Northerners than Southerners, I think, so not really a good example), and poor white trash will never be looked up to for their manners. But chivalry is more important down here (just like college football, haha.) Malcolm Gladwell pointed out the social difference in Southerners using a study done at the University of Michigan. Subjects were submitted to a long, dull test, after which they had to walk a long hallway to submit their paper to the monitor. Halfway down the hall, a large football player “accidentally bumped” the test taker. Only one group of people took exception and reacted. It didn’t matter if they were male or female, old or young, black or white. If they were Southerners, …
Taken to stupid extremes you get the Hatfields and McCoys, of course, and poor white trash – yes, rich non-whites can fit this category – is poor white trash. But, as for me and mine, …
If you think your best light is wearing a bra and panties in public, then your best light is probably very low light. Just sayin’
When my brother’s kid were teens (about 10 years ago) and they would have friends over, invariably one of them was wearing a baseball hat. My brother would then tell his favorite Bum Phillips story.
Bum Phillips was an NFL football coach who wore the proverbial 10 gallon Stetson on the sidelines. At one time, Bum got the job as head coach of the Houston Oilers. After one home game a reporter noted that he did not wear his famous hat at the game.
Bum responded that his mama taught him not to wear his hat inside. And anyplace where you couldn’t get rained on was inside.
The Oilers played their home games inside the Houston Astrodome, so he didn’t wear his hat.
Now, after hearing this story, the friends of my niece and nephew would usually look at my brother with a look of confusion while his kids rolled their eyes.
My brother being a nice NY Italian guy would then reach over, remove said hat and say something to the effect of “take you f’ing hat off in my house”.
Amazing that he didn’t have to tell the story to the same kid twice, but he told it a lot.
It’s about expectations. I still can’t stand to go to a reasonably nice restaurant and see people wearing baseball caps. If it’s a bar, ok. But have some awareness of where you are.
Narcissism? ‘Only what I think matters.’
I love a beautiful on a man.
Whenever a man holds a door open for me I make a point of smiling and thanking him – and often telling him, “Your mother brought you up right.”
Sometimes I see someone, and wonder if they looked at themselves in the mirror before they went out. I think there are times when someone may have had the same thought about me (I’m ashamed to admit.) We all should have a full length mirror, and make good use of it before we go outside.