I just want to get a general feel on the atmosphere here. In case you don’t know what these are I will give a charitable description of my understanding of each of these three terms. I don’t think I have to mention that each of these three terms also encompasses people with problems an people with bad intentions.
MRA: Mens Right Activists are basically a group of people who noticed that women are not victims in every case. Sometimes men are also victims. Like when it comes to work and war fatalities, homelessness, successful suicides, but also rapes, domestic violence’s and family courts or courts in general. They try to bring equality in those kinds of fields, but they get heavy pushback from the feminist side.
MGTOW: Men going their own way is neither a movement nor something political or whatever. It just means that men stop chasing women and try to improve themselves personally. Some of those men were dragged through family court, lost half their stuff, lost access to their children and have to pay alimony to the ex-wife, no matter if they have a job or not. Others see this situation and don’t even what to try. Others say that they don’t like the current state of women in this or all societies. Some of those men go full monk mode and avoid every contact with any women. Others don’t even know that there is a thing called MGTOW and still act the same way. And there are men who like their career or hobby so much that they don’t even care about finding a wife. But not all are saying no to a relationship or to a marriage. Some say they just don’t go out looking for a women. But if there is one who has a good enough character then they could consider a relationship. By the way the number of men not wanting to have a marriage is increasing because the courts are stacked against men. That’s why some men want relationship but no marriage. But countries like Canada and others adjust to the situation and the men can still be sued even if they didn’t live in the same house together.
Pickup artist: Everybody has probably witnessed, done or received an awkward proposal. Proposals are like many other things something few people are inherently good at. But this is something which can be learned. And Pickup artists are basically people who teach others how to do a good proposal. In the end not every pickup artist has good ideas and not every pickup artist uses it for a proposal for a monogamous long-term relationship. In the end it is just a description of learning the art of doing a good proposal.
What is your opinion on those three groups. Are they needed. Are they unnecessary? Are they hate groups? Did you have a personal interaction with them?
31 replies on “What is your opinion on MRA, MGTOW and Pickup artist?”
I stand by something I have said elsewhere…
I’m “on the outside looking in” concerning this subject, I am extremely happily married. But with that said, consider the following scenario:
***
You and your sweetheart have spent the evening drinking wine and watching a movie, snuggled up together on the couch. Now the movie is over. Your sweetheart stands up, walks to the bedroom door, looks over their shoulder and says, “Coming? I’ve got something I want to show you.”
You immediately stand up, drain the last of your wine, and go into the bedroom, where you and your sweetheart proceed to have a wonderful time.
***
Sounds harmless enough, does it not? Except that according to the standard of “yes means yes,” somebody just got raped. Which one, and how can you tell? Note that there is no mention made of gender. Either of them may be male or female, they may both be the same gender.
But according to the standard of “Me too” and “Believe all women,” it doesn’t matter who did what. If a woman claims she was sexually assaulted, she was. No actual evidence is required, and to even ask for evidence is sexist and misogynistic.
Now of course, if the accused in question is a popular Democrat/leftist, that’s different. Many prominent Democrats have come out recently and said that they believe Tara Reade, they believe that Joe Biden is a sexual predator… but they voted for him anyway.
So maybe it has nothing to do with sex, or gender, or how men and women treat each other. In at least some few notable cases, it has already been shown that “disagrees with leftist dogma” has been equated to “rapist” and “supports leftist dogma” has been equated with “champion of women’s rights,” regardless of how anyone treats anyone.
Given all that, why would you blame a man for refusing to play that game? More than one person has asked why MGTOW is so butthurt. Well if refusing to be part of the above is “butthurt,” would you please define what the difference is between “butthurt” and “sane,” exactly?
***
“An interesting game, Dr. Falken. The only way to win is not to play.”
– WOPR
Yes means yes is the most stupid thing out there. Nothing is besides the goodwill of the women keeps you from jail and destruction of your career and reputation. I’m glad that I live in a country where we are a bit behind when it comes to cultural movements. But that is sadly not a 100% guarantee of justice.
The strange thing is that the same people try to make sex into a purely physical thing which has nothing sacred to it. And everybody should do it with everybody, as long as there is consent. Don’t we love it all, the contradicting standards people have.
My thoughts on:
MRA; Any single dad falls into this category, as the legal systems in family law are designed to strip fathers of their rights ESPECIALLY if they do everything right.
When if comes to total number of rapes, consider how many men are in prison and how many of them are raped. Also, the law excludes legal definitions of rape (i.e. enveloping) when it comes to women raping young males. Stefan Molyneux did a segment on this:
https://lbry.tv/@freedomain:b/the-truth-about-rape-culture:2
I’ve also heard that legally men can’t be raped. I don’t think it is in every country that way, but every country that has this law is one country too many.
Is there a club for Women Going Their Own Way?
Good question. I’ve heard that some women say, “I need a man as much as a fish needs a bicycle.” A women with that mindset could be called going her own way.
But one reason why I wouldn’t find it surprising if Women Going Their Own Way isn’t happening is because how I do think men and women differ. Men tend to go inward and try to work out their own thing and women tend to go to their friends. MGTOW kinda has it in its name that the men go mostly alone and explore their own interest. The female version would be more of a community thing I suppose.
But I don’t know the female side well enough to make a statement about their situation.
I believe in equal rights.
I also believe the MGTOW is a result of a long-term plan to destroy the nuclear family, stack family courts, cripple men, and encourage single parent homes. (Talking from a USA standpoint here.)
Why would the govt. do that?
Same reason they lock down small business but allow big biz to operate during rona.
Same reason single moms are favored for govt. assistance over having a man in the house.
Same reason for all the anti-white stuff.
Same reason for the welfare state, push for universal basic income, free college, universal health care, etc.
Same reason for allowing millions of illegal immigrants into the country.
*Destruction of the middle class, destruction of jobs/small biz, destruction of majority who vote conservative.
Equals: Overwhelming majority of population living off the government teat and therefore under control of said government or else no monetary/food support.
Power and control and money!
And they are willing to destroy their country and its citizens to get it!
Do we REALLY get it yet?
I do think MGTOW is an effective movement against that. Because it encourages men to be independent. They also often reduce the interaction with society. Obviously not all, but they do advertise that message among themselves.
I agree. I watch Terrance Popp (Redonkulas/Popp Culture), Entrepreneurs in Cars, Sandman, and Coach Greg Adams to understand where they’re coming from and the “whys” behind the decision to live the lifestyle.
I don’t watch any MGTOW or MRA long term. I do/did watch some for a few months max and then I’m bored again. Especially since I normally don’t get any new things out of them. But I have watched enough of them to get their general opinion on society.
Two channels which I can recommend which go into the general direction of the topics I mentioned are Better Bachelor and Alexander Grace. Better Bachelor is an enjoyable person and Alexander Grace occasionally puts out a video with a view point which I haven’t seen in that way before.
I’ve been going my own way all my life. Not in the MGTOW sense but just being myself and to hell with what others think of me. As for relationships, I’ve had way more than my fair share, even if many were … um … let’s call them … extremely casual and short. I was married for 17 years then divorced. I’ll never get legally married again but I’m willing to make a personal, no-government-involved commitment to the right woman if I ever find her. Right now I’m single and “browsing.”
I’m all for supporting men’s rights and making the legal system truly equal for everyone.
I’ve never bothered with the pick-up artist stuff. Never needed it.
What you are doing is the definition of MGTOW. It is no movement someone is apart of.
I can see your position on all three points.
I think the above definitions for the latter two are disingenuously idealized.
I have had a lifetime of personal interactions with assholes and sociopaths. I suppose that colors my opinions and I will not apologize for those opinions.
I’m aware that there are several positions one can take on these groups. And even people who are part of these groups would not all agree amongst themselves. I just picked one that I do think fits with the core idea and which is not defined by the behavior of the worst members of those groups.
Could you be a bit more specific of where you disagree? Do see the value of one of these groups or would it be better if all three would just disappear from this world? Or where do they make a valid point, just in the wrong way?
What is a feminist? Or is that Feminist?
I guess that is a valid question. Feminism in its core idea wants to put women on an equal position as men are. They also want to liberate women in places where society restricts them. I do think a lot of people agree with that definition. And they could change society to a certain degree. As far as I know, women and men are equal before the law now (not every country is the same, but I do think it applies to most western countries). So far so good. But when we look at society women are not represented equally everywhere. Now we have a question: Why not?
The way I understand the modern third wave feminism movement does look at that and is the opinion that the reason is because of male oppression. At least they talk a lot about that. But this is not the only possible explanation. It could also be that there is a general biological difference between men and women.
I personally think science strongly points toward the second one. Like for example in the most egalitarian societies, the gender gap in STEM fields and social fields is bigger than it is in less egalitarian societies. Also you can observe with a few day old babies and even monkeys that women tend to look at faces longer and men tend to look at machines longer. Note this is all about the average and not the individual. But the gender-gap in STEM fields are also averages and not about individuals. Because of that this is a good comparison. Also there are height, hormone and muscle density differences between men and women. And women do get pregnant and they have a period. And obviously the society also plays a role in the entire situation.
As someone with that view, I do think it is not a problem if there are barely any women in STEM fields, as long as they are free to enter if they choose to do so. I also look at it when it comes to stay at home parent or leader positions.
But people who are advocates of third wave feminism do look at it differently. They think wherever there is a difference, there is a man oppressing a women behind it. And they only look at the places where women are in the minority. Like government positions, CEO, Hollywood… But topics like workplace deaths are actively avoided. (That’s what I meant by pushback) I do think there are still places where women are less advantaged as men are. But if you only focus on them then you will forget half the human population. Also they sometimes overshoot. Like I think it is in the UK where the legal definition of rape means inserting something into someone. That means that men can’t be raped by women. Just to mention one example of many.
That is the context of why I mentioned pushback by feminism. With feminism I don’t mean the random women who thinks that women should be equal before the law. I mean the publicly very influential movement which creates law which doesn’t care anymore about equality but woman superiority.
mra and mgtow … yep …. Pickup artists seem to range from the awkward who want to how to approach women, which seems fine (in the old days people would go to social events or get to know people in their social circle – now they have to do cold approaches), and those who are more like conmen who lie and trick women into sex based on a completely false representation of who they are, only to move on leaving their victims feeling abused and violated.
The age of the internet is not helpful in every case. Dating apps are a disastor for dating. And the metoo movement didn’t help when it comes to the entire situation. I do understand why the pickup artists exist. Both the the first category you mentioned and the second one.
As someone who doesn’t know how it is to live in a big city I don’t know how dating looks like there. Do you know if they have only night clubs or if there is a diverse rang of social events one can attend?
im not a city guy.
I’m from Switzerland. We don’t even have cities. 🙂
Actually we have I think 5 cities between 500k and 100k. Everything else is smaller.
These is a website called “Meetup.com” that I use. There are a wide variety of groups for various interests. Almost all of the groups that show up in my area are free for members. I have my own hiking group in a mid-sized city with over 350 members. Usually, 15 to 20 people show up, once per week. There are dating groups, but no one attends the meetings, probably due to the fear of their fellow man giving them a disease. These are sad times.
Sad times indeed.
And I just looked into the website with the location being New York. There are all kinds of events. Thank you for the response.
MRA is necessary. As stated, things are stacked against men, especially where children are concerned. For a man to get some custody of a child is almost impossible. The other two may be necessary, sadly.
I do think if done right then the existence of pickup artists is not something sad. Why shouldn’t people learn to properly learn how to interact with the opposite sex when it comes to getting into a relationship.
But with MGTOW I agree that it is sad that it seems to be necessary now. Not in every case, but for too many.
The word misogynist is used by people all the time. I think most people know what it means. Do people even know the word for people that hate men? If you don’t, it’s misandrist.
I prefer the practice of misanthropy myself.
I started a Facebook group a while back called Crotchety Misanthropes. Our motto was “Get the hell off my lawn!” and the only reaction I allowed was the angry face. LOL
I’m off FB for good now, though.
There is a very good documentary named “The Red Pill” by a former feminist. Feminists have actually protested the showing of this movie. Our culture is sick.
I watched it.
MRA Is definitely a noble cause. Naturally the feminazis HATE it like the white hot heat of a thousands suns because MRA has been so propagandized against. But that’s the extreme end of the spectrum (but the loudest)
Normal women who are open-minded and rational enough to actually listen are often appalled at how badly the courts and the culture is stacked against men – the really smart ones realize it’s their fight too – for their sons.
MGTOW is… regrettable. But understandable. I myself more or less fit into that category (technically) at the moment. Though I’m well aware that this is NOT a sign of a healthy society. And not really helpful to making a sick society into a well one. Still – when one realizes that a SINGLE WORD can RUIN a man. That ALL the power is held by women in the current gynocentric culture that the left has promulgated, one tends to be cautious to the point of paranoia and withdrawal.
Again – I want to stress that while an understandable response, this is not a good sign that many men have withdrawn. It is not the natural state of things.
Pick-up Artists – Maybe that works for some people. But it wouldn’t work for me. There seems to be something skeevy about the manipulative aspect that just rubs me the wrong way.
You described my current opinion on these three topics quite nicely.
MRA: no comments there. I would have written the same.
MGTOW: I’m only a MGTOW in the sense that I don’t go out of my way to look for a partner. So far I haven’t seen one that I’m interested in. That is partially because of me being an introvert and I don’t have a very active social live. And it is also the case that I stray a bit from the average guy. And therefor it wouldn’t surprise me if I also will have a bit of an unique women one day. But I do think in my country (Switzerland) the situation is less problematic than it is in the English speaking world. Additionally I do agree that the best state of a society is the nuclear family. MGTOW is a necessary way to defend oneself in the current situation, but it is a bad sign for the health of the society.
Pickup artists: I’m also not too fond of them. There are a few I’ve come across which put out decent content. But I never really watched them in the first place and I stopped watching them altogether by now.